Leading A Groundskeeping Crew – With Chuck White

We’re back with Chuck White, of United Turf and Track. In this episode, we switch from discussing what goes on behind the scenes to how anyone can lead and empower their crew, on and off the infield. Whether you have a team of full-time people, or you are leading a small group of volunteers, we cover everything from tackling interpersonal issues to learning how to lead for the first time. Join us as we dive one step deeper into the world of infield grooming. 

To learn more about the ABI Force visit:
https://www.abiattachments.com/self-propelled-machine/ 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:15 Last time on Ground Etc.
• 1:15 Leadership in groundskeeping
• 4:16 Conflict and knowing your people
• 8:41 Welcome back Chuck White!
• 9:11 Leading a groundskeeping crew
• 11:14 Softball renovation and the right team
• 13:47 How Chuck leads
• 16:14 Seasonal crews and flipping a field
• 20:33 Team conflict advice
• 23:56 Developing a team player
• 26:18 Give and take to get along
• 29:11 The team you have and turnover
• 32:37 Relationship skills
• 34:11 ABI Force and implementing feedback
• 36:41 Industry leaders and quality equipment
• 39:25 Never stop learning
• 43:53 Transition, change, and ownership
• 46:20 Thank you Chuck!

Transcript

- I'm Scott Holmes.

- I'm Matt Metzger, and you're listening to "Ground Et Cetera." This season, we're going to be talking all things infield grooming. From routine maintenance to leading groundskeeping teams to serious renovation work, we talk to experts of the field, on the ground, the work. et cetera.

- Yeah. And, you know, the other day in our first episode of this podcast, we talked to Mr. Chuck White. And, you know, we called him the myth, the man, the legend. And he is.

- [Matt] Deserving.

- Deservingly so. And, you know, if you watched or listened to this episode, you already got an incredible insight into his history and how he became who he is and how he got to the level of USA softball and, you know, the kind of the career and the family man. I mean, I was just really, really impressed by how he gained his knowledge. And I'll tell you the thing that really got me was from the time he was a child, he and his dad were inventing their own products for sports turf.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- Right?

- [Matt] Yep.

- And that really resonated with us.

- [Matt] Oh, you bet.

- Because ABI, we're innovators.

- And they're just problem solvers, right? I mean, he needed something and he went to his dad, and his dad said, "Well, let's see if we can make it," right?

- Right. I mean, his dad said, "That doesn't exist, so we need it, "so let's make it."

- "Let's make it." Yeah.

- And so, you know, Chuck from a little boy was all about having the best equipment and the best practices. But one of the things I was really excited to hear from him was about his leadership style. Because, Matt, you and I have been in business, me longer than you simply because of age.

- We can talk about that later.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could be my son. Not really, but anyway. We've been in the business for a long time, and we know that leadership is paramount when it comes to having a cohesive team, having a team that is effective.

- Well, when you think about the context that Chuck is in, I mean, you've got groundskeepers across the country that sometimes they get to pick their own teams. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes you've got full-time help. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you've got part-timers, sometimes not. Sometimes you've got seasonal help or even volunteers just for tournaments. And you think about some of the challenges that a leader faces when they've got a full-time team with them. But then you just multiply that, you know, tenfold when you're working on a groundskeeping crew that you're responsible for leading this variety of people that some of them you know well and some of them you may not know at all, and you're under the gun on some pretty extreme pressures, especially given like seasons and tournaments and schedules.

- Oh, no kidding. Especially at the level he was at. Oh my gosh, it was crazy. But you know that whenever there are humans involved, there's usually conflict. I mean, it's just, it's our nature. I mean...

- [Matt] Everyone has their own ideas.

- Have you ever known a team where there wasn't a little bit of angst, a little bit of give and take? No, there's always this moment or two where the alphas may, you know, butt heads or there may not be enough-

- Too many cooks in the kitchen.

- Too many cooks in the kitchen, and maybe no cooks at all and everybody's just doing their own thing. You know, how do you manage a team? How do you lead a team? And I really, you know, I knew of Chuck and I had met him once. I didn't really know him very well. But man, he wasn't just a leader of team. He was a leader of individuals. I mean, he talked about, you know, character development. I mean, what it means to, I mean, if you're listening to this or watching this podcast and you're young and you want to be an effective groundskeeper, you need to listen to this and watch this. Listen to Chuck.

- [Matt] Yeah!

- I mean, he really gave great advice as to how to be indispensable. I mean, he talked about employees that he kept simply because they were crawling under the bleachers and picking up trash without being asked.

- Yeah.

- Right?

- Well, and I think it's an aspect of the role that can be easily missed because, you know, Chuck told some great stories, and we'll get to that here in a second, where he recognized some players that just loved the field. You know, players that he knew he loved coaching, but then they liked spending time on the field. When they had spare time, they came out and helped on the field because they just loved the field work. So folks who love the field and love the field work and love the feeling of helping to prepare something that's just magical for the game, thinking about how to be a leader or a conflict resolver or someone who is helping a group of people come together to accomplish a task, sometimes that is, that's a skillset that not everyone thinks about when thinking about going into the profession, going into the career of groundskeeping.

- Yeah, so staff leadership, there's always the great reward of providing.

- Yeah.

- And I love that. But there's also conflict. We know it. Sometimes you have to let people go. Sometimes you have to discipline people. It's just part of being a leader. And Matt, you've been with ABI a long time. We won't go into how many years 'cause I'll get it wrong and you'll correct me and they'll think I'm stupid. And, you know, we just won't go into that.

- I would never. Whatever you say is right, Scott. That's how I've been at ABI so long.

- But you've been with us a long time. And a part of your role has been leadership development. It has been the hiring. You have been, you're not a traditional HR. I mean, you're more of a leadership development and a team builder for us. And you've been the head of that division for a long time, so I know that you have faced conflict probably on a daily basis. Give us some examples or what have you learned in your life as far as how to be a good leader and what are some things that you can share with our listeners and viewers?

- Yeah, I think the, I mean, specifically when it comes to conflict, it is, and actually Chuck gets into this, and so I'm not gonna steal his thunder there, but the not running from it, not hiding from it, not thinking it's just gonna go away, right? So, and one of the most crucial things I've learned is just don't think that problems are gonna resolve themselves. If you are the one responsible for a team of people, it is up to you to know how to engage a situation to resolve the conflict.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- It's not gonna just disappear. And if you're ignoring conflict, most likely your team's gonna start to dissolve and fall apart, and people are gonna leave on their own because they need a sword and shield, right? Every team ever needs someone to kind of stand up and say, "I'm gonna protect the team. "I'm gonna serve the team. "I'm gonna take care of the team." And if there's conflict, well, that's the leader's responsibility to engage and to help. But I think there's actually some proactive steps you can take ahead of time to avoid the conflict in the first place. And I think part of that is just knowing people well enough to get the right people in the right places. All right, taking the time as a leader to spend with your people, to know your people, to build the trust, and to really get to know what do people care about? What are people inspired about? Where do people want to go? And even if it's an internship, even if it's a summer gig, even if it's just helping out with ball fields in the summertime, knowing that person well enough to say, "Hey, where do you wanna take your career? "What do you wanna do?" And then trying to get people, and you can't always do it, depending on the size of team and depending on the opportunity. But if you know where people want to go, if you know what people want to do, and you can somehow align the work with that desire, with those strengths, well, when people are doing what they love, it automatically eliminates a lot of the conflict because everyone can contribute in the way that makes them feel most alive. And if everyone on the team is doing that, well, then the team hums.

- Yeah, and it also helps eliminate turnover. And for a leader, turnover of staff is brutal.

- Yeah.

- I think it's one of the most under understood cost to a business.

- [Matt] Oh, for sure.

- I mean, people think, "All right, well if you don't wanna work here, just go."

- [Matt] Yeah.

- How about we develop them and train them and get them in the right spot like you're talking about, but then when it is time for them to go, it's okay.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- You know, I've had staff come to me and say in tears, going, "I have to go, and I know you're gonna be so upset." No, I'm not upset. You have served us well, you have grown, we've helped you grow, we've provided for you, and now it's time for you to spread your wings and go do something that I can't provide you. That's an okay result too.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- But in the meantime, I got to keep them for five or six years longer than I would've if they'd have been frustrated. So you're absolutely right. Helping them. And Chuck does talk about putting people in the right spot.

- Well, and I think to that point too, it's helpful, especially in this kind of post-COVID era of, you know, remote work is more possible and hybrid work is more possible, I think the, where people can go to work, where team members can go to find a team or find a leader, there's so many more options than there were before. And so it really comes down to, and the old adage is still true, that people don't leave jobs, people leave leaders, right?

- [Scott] Oh, yeah.

- And so if contributors, if team members have more teams they can play for or work for and there are more leaders that they can work with, well, then to be the kind of person that makes people feel safe, that makes people feel heard, that makes people feel valued, that's now more imperative than ever for leaders to take that time to invest in their team members, to really know people because that's gonna be the difference, that's what's gonna set leaders and teams apart.

- Absolutely. And, you know, Chuck gave us some great advice on that and some great experience of his and how he's handled that.

- [Matt] Sure.

- If you're watching and listening, you'll learn a lot.

- [Matt] Yep. Well, we are back here again with Mr. Chuck White. Chuck is previously the turf manager, maintenance manager at the USA Hall of Fame Complex, now at United Turf and Track. And this is not Chuck's first episode with us. If you missed the first episode, Chuck was with us last time around talking specifically about equipment and turf and his history and how he got into it and how he would recommend for people interested in getting into sports field maintenance to kind of jump into it and find their way. But this time around, we wanna take kind of a different course of the conversation, Chuck, because not only have you been designing and building and working on fields, you have been leading teams who are doing that kind of work. And that's a different ballgame. To be able to do it yourself is one thing, but to be able to help a crew that has varying degrees of experience, that's a whole different ball of wax to tackle.

- And Matt, you and I both know, we've been in business a long time, we've led teams and hired teams. No team ever looks the same.

- Right.

- I mean, you have a variety of skill levels. A variety of personalities.

- [Matt] Yep.

- A variety of work ethic. I mean, tell us about some of the teams that you've had, some of your best teams. How did you mold them? How did you make them? How did you lead them?

- Probably go back to Midwest City where I first started coaching high school. Jerry Long was the head coach, and it was Jerry and I basically. But then as my boys got older, they would go, "Dad." And I'd start teaching them how to do this and how to do that. So my first team was probably in-house as much as anything with my boys, you know? And it's much like the pattern with my dad. I ate breakfast, lunch, and dinner with dad at the table, and I worked with him all day. And so our relationship always built. Same thing with my boys. Had breakfast, lunch, and dinner with dad, and then I'd go to the field and work with dad and they would learn. And so the extension of Jerry and I, and maybe one more assistant coach, Jeff Moore, and some others, and then I would add my boys in. And they're young and they're growing, they're junior high, and then they go to high school, and then they go to college. And when they're in college, they're helping Lloyd, their coach, take care of their field.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- 'Cause these key people knew, "Okay, that's Chuck's boys and they can do this. "And so when I recruit them, they can do this for me."

- [Scott] Right.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- And so we would do that. Same thing at the high school, at the second high school. I went to Carl Albert High School, and I started being the softball coach. And the softball field was not good, okay? So I immediately, I came in, I start working. Well, the person before me obviously didn't work on her field. And in a very short time they see the amount of time that I'm putting in and the transformation's starting to happen. And so the season hadn't gotten here yet. And they go, "Can I ask you a question?" I said, "Sure." He says, "Do you expect me to work on that field "as much as you do?" I go, "Probably not, but I will need your help."

- [Matt] Yeah.

- The next day they were gone.

- [Scott] Really?

- They resigned.

- [Scott] Wow.

- [Matt] Wow. Oh no.

- Because they didn't want any.

- That's probably a good thing though.

- Yeah, 'cause I didn't wanna babysit 'em.

- Right, no kidding.

- I didn't wanna spend my time doing that. So then I got another girl that came in at softball, and her name was Devin. And she had a back base, sorry, a basketball background. But Devin came from a small rural town, would do anything. And Devin wanted to learn.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- And Devin would do anything for me, to do anything. And I remember coming out of the little shed one day, and I'm looking around, "Where's Devin? "I can't find Devin." Start yelling for Devin. Devin's on her hands and knees underneath the bleachers picking up trash. I'm saying she's staying.

- No kidding, wow.

- I'm keeping her. I'm keeping her. Because only reason that person's doing this 'cause they want to do that.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- I didn't tell her to do it. She saw it. And she said, "That needs to be done." And she went and did it. She stays.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- And so I start keeping her and making her feel welcome because I don't wanna lose Devin.

- [Scott] Right.

- So, you know, at the end of the year, after the first, after we finished our final game, I looked at Devin. I said, "Devin, what'd you learn this year?" She goes, "I never knew we watered dirt." I go, "Really?" She goes, "I had no idea." So there are a lot of things again, just by watching that they learn and they educate themselves. So getting the right people and they give you signs. Oh, Devin, I'm keeping her because of what she did or what he did, you know, and looking for those individuals, always being vigilant to find that person that shows you more than telling you that they wanna be there.

- Right, so were you a boss that was quick to replace or would you rather give somebody a long time to overcome their weaknesses or overcome their personality, you know, things that you didn't care for or were you like, "I got a job to do. "I got a game on Thursday "and I just, I gotta find the right people. "So if you don't give me one good hard day of work, "you're out." I mean, which way did you lead?

- Going back to my dad's shop again, okay. I'm a young boy. He buys me a welding helmet. I'm learning to weld. So I'm welding. He's sitting beside me. And the next thing I know is my dad's not there. I can tell he is gone. And I flipped my hood up and turn around and look. I said, "Dad, where are you going?" He walks over to the welder and he turns it off. I go, "What's going on?" He goes, "I want to teach you to weld, but you're not ready. "When you're ready, I'll teach you." He didn't give up on me.

- [Scott] Right.

- He didn't write me off. He just knew that you're not ready. And so that taught me the lesson is that I, as a teacher, look at players, I look at students, and not all students are the same. Not all workers are the same. And so I've got to match up what they can do and what their likes and dislikes are. This job is something they can do and they wanna do it, so I put 'em there.

- [Scott] Yeah, that's great.

- And then I give them time to make a mistake. Devin, again, I put the string down and Devin says, "Can I chalk the field today?" Never done it before in her life. She chalks the third base line. Great. She comes around and chalks the first base line. And I go, "We've got a problem." So I come down, I said, "Come here, Devin." We stood at home plate, and I said, "Look at this line." I said, "Now look at that line." She goes, "Oh, I messed up." She had chalked inside this string here and outside the string there. She said, "We got a game in two hours. "What are we gonna do?" "Go grab a rake." We scratched it out, we redid it. I let her chalk it again. Everything's good. So I'm not gonna beat 'em up 'cause I made mistakes.

- [Scott] Sure.

- You know? So...

- [Scott] Yeah, helping 'em find their strengths, let 'em find-

- Yeah, yeah. What their strengths and likes are and then let them grow into other things.

- Yeah. But they have to have those intangibles though. They have to have the desire, the passion.

- They do.

- Yeah. And that it sounds like, oh, that you have time, right? Talking about your, building that relationship with your dad at the meal tables, or if you've got somebody working with you that you know you've got them for a long run, potentially. Talk to us about the situations you've been in in which you had people who were around for a tournament or a season of tournaments, but that was it. I mean, this is very temporary in your relationship. You may not have had the chance to get to know them as well. How do you build that relationship and provide leadership to that kind of crew?

- Okay, so I guess my best story here would be at the USA Softball Hall of Fame. So we got the World Series coming, right? Up until the World Series, it's me and another guy full-time and then part-timers, maybe two, three if I'm lucky, four be heaven if we had that.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- You know, for tournaments during the season or other events. But the World Series comes and I got, I remember going in my very first one and Rich, my boss, looked at me. He goes, "Now between game one and game two, "ESPN's gonna give you 13 minutes to change this field. "You gotta take the field completely out "and you gotta put the field completely back in "in 13 minutes." And I'm going, "You're serious?" "Yes." Okay, so I immediately started looking for people in my background, in my contact list that I know knows what's going on and want to be there. So obviously the first people I'm gonna look at is my family. Here's Colin and here's Aaron. I don't have to tell them what to do. They can look at it and know this is what you do, this is what you do. So they're my strength. And then I start going and looking for coaches. Coaches that coach baseball or softball previously that I have a relationship with that I've watched them take care of their fields. "Hey, come and help me this week." And they loved it. Former players or a guy that didn't really play for me but he coached for me and he's a friend of Aaron's, he had a turf management degree from OSU. "So TJ, you come. "During the World Series, TJ, the outfield grass is yours. "I'm not touching it. "You mow it, you sweep it, you do whatever. "If I need to do something, you tell me." So TJ came and took care of the grass. It's yours. I don't have to worry about it. "Okay, Colin, you do this. "Aaron, you do this." And then I have Ryan, Andrew, and Chris that I brought who are former players. "Chris, you're a catcher, you're working home plate, okay? "Ryan, you and Andrew are both pitchers, "you're working the mound." And then I got my grandson, okay? He's a 10-year-old, 11-year-old. What's he doing? He's pulling strings and hauling hose and just running a wheelbarrow. And then my daughter gets in on it. She'd get out there, shoveling, you know, doing different things. So my whole family is out there, plus the coaches and other people. And so I got a crew of 12. The first time we did this, we did it in 14 minutes, not 13. So we came off the field, we got it all together and say, "Okay, what didn't we do right? "What can we do better?" And so basically each one of us have a full-time assignment, and then when you're finished, you got a half an assignment to help somebody else. And so when we came off after that first time, we sat down as a group, I led the group, we had a discussion, we talked about this. How'd you do that? What could you do better? What could you do better? What are we missing? And we talked and we identified those. So we got all of our stuff loaded up. And when the last out is made, everything is lined up and we're gone.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- And so everybody's checking everybody. We got this, we got that. Everything, all of our materials, all of our equipment is there, and we're gone. After that first time, we never missed 13 minutes.

- [Scott] Really?

- [Matt] Wow.

- The best we ever did it was 10.

- [Scott] Wow.

- It's impressive.

- Flip a field in 10 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

- But that relationship of, first of all, picking the right people, they want to be there. It's short term, but it's still very important. You got a lot of people watching you. And division one coaches are kind of picky.

- [Scott] I bet. I bet they are.

- Don't blame 'em.

- Yeah, so you and I know from experience, too much experience, that not every team gets along. There are personality conflicts.

- I don't know what you're talking about, Scott.

- I know you don't.

- We get along all the time.

- We get along all the time. You and I aren't on the same team. No, I'm just kidding. Cut that. We don't want that.

- [Matt] Did I just get fired right now? Did that just happen?

- No, but not every team is cohesive. Not every team has personalities that match, but you still gotta get the job done. How do you handle those kind of, there's gotta be conflicts. You can't tell me in 30, 40 years you haven't had teams without conflict. I know you have.

- Yeah.

- How do you handle it?

- I probably call upon my experience as a coach and a teacher. If I got a student that in the classroom is just a problem or I got a coach, I mean a player that's a problem, I have learned in my, I call it my 24 hour rule. If something happens, I stop it and I'll back off for 24 hours and take a look at it. I don't wanna make a decision or react to something that I think would be wrong for me, wrong for them, wrong for the whole situation. I don't want to create more problems.

- [Matt] Fantastic advice.

- That's great advice.

- I want to damage control it, if you will.

- [Scott] Right, right.

- And so I will shut it down or shut them down, whatever it is. And I won't overreact. I just kind of... And I don't walk off and leave it, but I go for 24 hours and I think about it. "Okay, this is so-and-so. "What do I know about them? "How will they best respond to my critique? "And how should I address that with them "as an individual to take care of them? "To take care of me, but take care of the situation "and see if we can't solve something."

- [Matt] Yeah.

- Sometimes it works. All? No. It's not absolute.

- [Scott] Sure.

- But my 24 hour route, whether I'm teaching a class, coaching a team, or on the field.

- I think that's great advice. I mean, I can't tell you how many times as a business owner I've done that where it's like, "Nope, I can't deal with this right now. "I have to think on this. "I've gotta think about what's best for the whole, "not just react to this one situation."

- And I think the thing is, we as bosses don't want to think about us first.

- [Scott] Right.

- I wanna think about them.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- It's not that I want to hurt their feelings, it's just that I want to put them in a position where they're willing to listen. If they're not willing to listen, it doesn't matter much what I'm gonna say. So it's the tone of my voice. It's the approach of my... And you would be different than you.

- [Scott] Sure.

- You know? It's different. If I talk to Colin, my oldest son, and I talked to Aaron, my younger son, I don't talk to them the same way. They're two totally different people.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- So do you have a degree in psychology? You should. You should teach psychology.

- That comes from teaching 21 years of first through sixth grade.

- Right.

- And watching them grow.

- [Scott] Right.

- And I don't talk to 'em as a first grader like I do as a sixth grader, but, you know, and I develop 'em as we go along.

- [Scott] Right, right, right.

- So that's kinda if crap hits the fan, if you will, right? When conflicts arise. Give me a story the other end of the spectrum. Talk to me about a time where you had a team member that because of your involvement with the team member, because of your development, because of the time you spent that that person really thrived, and it brings you a lot of joy to see it happen.

- Well, I would have to say the one that comes to mind is Ryan who's with me right now, okay? I recruit him as a pitcher in 2007. And I didn't really even, somebody told me about him and he came and so I did it. But I saw that Ryan, again, wanted to be there. And I could tell, you know, you watch him and like he's watching you, what you're doing. And I thought, "Okay, come here, Ryan." And so Colin, my oldest son, is kind of our mound builder. I said, "Colin, go get Ryan, go get Andrew "and teach them how to, we build a mound, "but I want you to teach him how to take care of the mound "day after day." And so that's where it started. And so we started developing Ryan and Andrew. And then as Ryan went along, okay, he did that well. And we got him a few more responsibilities. And so when I went to the Hall of Fame, "Hey Ryan, you interested? "Andrew, are you interested? "Chris, my catcher, are you interested?" And they came. Well, I didn't have to teach him a lot of stuff 'cause they already knew a lot.

- [Scott] Right.

- And you don't always get to keep 'em. Andrew found something and he wanted to go do that, and Chris found something, but Ryan stuck.

- [Scott] Right.

- And he stayed with me. And to this day, he's with me. And then when I left and did Full Scope Restorations, left USA, started my own business. Two years later, Dylan comes to me and says, "I want you to come be a part of me." So he buys my company, merges us in. He goes, "Who else do we need?" "Well, you need Colin and Aaron." "Right, who else?" "Ryan Morris." So now Ryan's with me. He's been with me since '07.

- [Scott] Wow.

- I mean, I love your 24 hour rule. I love the idea of slowing down, stopping, thinking, thinking about the individual, not just how you'd like to react in the situation, which, you know, varying degrees of emotion depending on-

- Oh yeah.

- Depending how bad it was.

- I've gotten hot a few times.

- But what about when there's conflict amongst your team? Even a small team when some head-butting is going on and the unrest kind of permeates the entire team. It's not just one person.

- Yeah, it's affecting the whole.

- Yeah.

- Affecting the whole.

- Have you ever had to deal with that? If so, what did you do?

- [Chuck] Thankfully not much.

- Yeah.

- But a little bit, you know, and it wasn't really yelling and screaming, but you can go like, you can tell by there looks like something's not right here. You know? And I may go to 'em, say, you know, "What's going on?" "Well, I saw such and such." And so they may identify another person and so I'll go and talk to them. So I try to get the story from multiple sides. And then once I kind of get a feel for it, then I may call in a group and say, "Okay, we've got a little bit of rub here."

- [Matt] Yeah.

- A little. And so I kind of come up with an approach of how I can massage this person a little bit, I can kind of massage that person a little bit. But in a group to where you've gotta give and take, you've gotta give and take, and we gotta get along here 'cause we got a job to do. Okay? And so I don't yell and scream, I don't jump up and down, make a big deal of it. Now if you want me to get in your chili, I can. Believe me, I can. But I don't want to.

- I don't wanna test him on that.

- [Scott] No, I don't either.

- But I've not had to do that a whole lot simply because I think that I've learned it's not about me, it's about us. But I am responsible for us.

- Sure.

- Bottom line.. The guy up in the press box, if there's a problem with the grounds crew, they're gonna go and see me first.

- [Matt] Yeah, you bet.

- So it is, but it isn't about me. But I realize how important their input and their ideas, and perhaps they see some things from a different perspective that if they explain it to me, that's legit. I might need to look at this differently.

- [Scott] Sure.

- And so, or I may say, "Great, but not right now. "Let's do that some other time." You know? So it's learning to manage the situation, but first of all, I gotta manage me.

- [Matt] That's a great reminder.

- I gotta manage me first because everybody else takes their lead off of me. If I yell and scream, they're gonna yell and scream.

- Right.

- If I'm gonna get defensive, they're gonna get defensive.

- Yeah.

- I don't want that to happen because I don't feel like growth and performance does well on a field or with a crew. I don't want us to have a attitude of avoidance.

- [Matt] Yep.

- If we start avoiding one another, this isn't gonna be good.

- [Scott] Right.

- We've gotta get along. Even if you disagree, we still gotta get along.

- Yeah. Well, and I wonder too, if the, and I'm grateful that throughout your career you've had limited experiences where there's some head-butting on the teams. And I wonder if some of the benefit of you being able to handpick those team members, right? But a lot of the folks listening and kind of in this industry, that's not always possible. I mean, there's a lot of folks that they're running crews that your summer help shows up, right, or your seasonal help shows up, or this is the same intern that we've had for years, the part-time guy we've had for years, and the guy calling the shots isn't necessarily the guy who's handpicking his team. Any recommendations for groundskeepers, leaders in that scenario that the people they got are the people they got, they didn't have any say in it.

- Right. I guess again, I wanna go back to the USA, all right? And so once I got there, there had been a turnover of different groundskeepers. And I'm going, "Why did he not stay very long? "Why did he not stay very long?" And so I've had an opportunity once or twice to talk to 'em and they told me what their deal was.

- [Matt] Wow.

- And sometimes it was personnel. Sometimes it was a relationship between them and the people above them.

- [Scott] Sure.

- [Matt] Oof.

- And it wasn't very good.

- [Scott] Right.

- So I think in that situation, the first thing I'm gonna do is, kinda like the 24 hour rule, I'm gonna think it through how I can approach my superior about this might have been your hiring practices in the past, but for us to get the best performance out of what you want out of me and you want out of this, we're gonna have to change and give some ideas and perform that way. And when I was recruited and they were talking to me about this job, I said, "One of the things you gonna understand "is I'm fixing to change the dynamic of your building." He said, "Well, what do you mean?" I said, "The people that I know that will come and work "for us is about to change completely "because they all are experienced, professional, "good people."

- [Matt] Got it.

- And I remember, that time I told you we did the 14 minute thing, we didn't make it the first time. We went out and did it and came back in. We weren't feeling good about it. But the people that were in the bleachers, the ushers and administrators and the other people, operations people came to me, one of 'em came to me and he goes, "Buddy, you just changed the clientele, "and everybody up there is buzzing "because we've never seen this field ever done "like that before." He says, "The people you hired, how they perform, "how they handle the sales, how they work together," he goes, "We've never seen that."

- It sounds like it starts for you, and you actually made this kind of a minor point, you flew by it, and I think that's because it's so natural for you, that I heard you say almost offhandedly there, that one of the first things that you did in a situation that you saw the turnover, you started asking questions. You went back to people who had left and you started picking brains a little bit. And I think that's a, because there's so much work to do on the field, there's so much pressure for operations folks, there's so much pressure on a schedule that it can be easy for head groundskeepers to skip over the step of getting to know people, getting to know the situations. Why is the team here? Why are people doing what they're doing? Why have people left? And making time for those conversations. Maybe a phone call, maybe over a cup of coffee. Sounds like that changed the game for you. But it comes so naturally you're just gonna breeze right by it there.

- Let's go back. You remember I talked to you about the the Eddie thing?

- [Matt] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- All right, so this is kind of an Eddie thing also, okay? My father had an eighth grade education.

- [Matt] No kidding.

- He had to quit to help take care of his family. Okay, so he one of the smartest people I ever knew because he had great relationship skills.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- Now my father worked in the oil field, right? Okay? Could be a very, not a very nice environment.

- [Scott] Sure.

- [Matt] Yeah.

• - But everybody knew how Eddie conducted himself. Okay? And so dad would tell me, you know, we'd be riding the truck, we'd talk about stuff and he says, "You know, sometimes the best thing you can do "is shut your mouth and listen."

- [Scott] Right.

- [Matt] Wow.

- "Don't be quick to respond. "Just close your mouth, open your ears, and listen, "and get the information you need "to do what's gonna be done." And I saw him do that. And then he shared that with me. And then I saw it in a different light. And I think he put that in me when I was younger. Was I very good at that when I started?

- Yeah, but it was in there.

- No. And it takes a while for things like that to take effect and for you to make it your own.

- Right.

- Okay? But that's where I got it from my dad, because I saw him do that in the oil field with the people, the not so nice people that he had to deal with. And they understood when Eddie came on site, we're gonna deal with Eddie a little bit different 'cause this is the way Eddie is.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- One of the things that I really appreciate about ABI, great equipment, okay? I love it. And it has made my life better. And I feel like I have a better performance. I put out a better product because of it. But again, the thing that I respect and appreciate so much from ABI is that sometimes people get really possessive and they don't take critique very well.

- [Scott] Right.

- Okay? And so they have busted their fanny and made changes and do this and they do that and then they put it out there, say, "Man, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread." And then Chuck comes back and makes a comment or makes an observation, it's kinda like... Oh yeah. And that's not what I saw. With Kevin and Taylor, that's not what I'm-

- And Nate, our engineer.

- And Nate, exactly. They always pick up the phone and they're always, and they ask me questions. "Hey, this, that. "What do you think about this? "What do you think about that?" And not only will they listen, they'll make adjustments. So during the World Series first time, the hitch on the ABI wasn't right and the back end wasn't working. So I told Taylor, he said, "Let's call Kevin." I call Kevin. We started talking By the end of the World Series, he had made a prototype and shipped it to me, and we're using it before the World Series is over.

- Isn't that incredible?

- Now you tell me what other company has ever done that for me.

- Right.

- None.

- Well, you know, one of the things that ABI knows for sure is that we don't know everything, right? I mean, there's just no way. And when we got into the sports turf market, we didn't know everything. We had to rely on strategic partners, and we had to rely on industry experts like yourself. And I think it is a big mistake by a lot of big companies that, you know, they just get kind of tunnel vision. They get behind their computers and their CAD drawings, and they design something that technically works, and then they put it out there and they don't take feedback and they don't take and they don't respond to the industry. Well, I tell you what, there's no way we would be where we are today if we didn't listen.

- But I guess the thing I would say to you and to the people out there is that's what makes you unique. That's what gives you success because you adapt and listen and modify and work with us. And that makes your product better, but that makes our job easier and gives us a better product. So yeah, we're all in. We want a part of that.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- Well, and I love that that bridges that gap to the way that you like to lead your people, the way that you like to lead the teams that you work with, and the way that we like to lead by providing great equipment, right? Like, you're leading teams by equipping your teams and empowering your teams in order to do a great work on the field, and we're trying to be leader in the industry so that we can give people great equipment and great product. And in both of those venues, it takes a lot of listening, takes a lot of conversation.

- And think that's the thing that leaving Full Scope and going to United Turf and Track, Dylan's a really good friend of mine, okay? But one of the things I've always appreciated about Dylan is he buys the best equipment. And I was working for him one day and I was tilling the field, it's hot and dusty and just ugly. And I called him, I was in the cab of a John Deere tractor and I said, "I'm tilling this thing up and thank you." And he goes, "For what?" I said, "I'm sitting in an air conditioned cab. "It's 100 degrees outside, dust is everywhere. "If I don't have this cab, I'm a filthy mess."

- Right.

- And he buys the best equipment to take care of his people. Now it's more expensive, but it's an investment in his people and the job. And that's the thing that I appreciate about Dylan is he looks for those people that are right, he buys them the best equipment to do their job.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- And his company reflects that.

- You know, this is not baseball related, it's football related, but it's on topic. I remember seeing an interview with Jerry Jones with some of his past players. And they were just ripping him apart for how much he'd spent on the new stadium, not new now, but new then, in Dallas, right? And he said something that I will always remember. He said, "I have spent my life paying the highest price "for quality and I've never been disappointed, "so you can say what you want, boys." And I thought, you know what? That is wise advice, that you spend what you need to to get what you need and you won't have to buy it twice.

- And that's what's happened with Dylan, once he purchased my and we merged our companies, he's gone and hired quality people and pays them well and treats them respectfully.

- Now you don't have turnover.

- And if you do that, that breeds loyalty.

- Yes.

- That breeds good performance. And you build a relationship and we go in and we sit down individually and as a group with Dylan and Jared that runs the place and they listen to us, and they take time and we spend a meal together and do stuff. And I think that's priceless. That's what leadership is about.

- Exactly. Well, Chuck, we know that we never stop learning. We never stop growing. As long as you're living, you're running into situations where you've got to modify and change and grow. So in the leadership role that you've been in, even though you've been in it for a long time and obviously you're good, you're a good leader. Is there something in the last couple years, a situation that's hit you that's like, "Wow, I just learned something at my age," you know?

- Yeah. Life is a transition.

- [Scott] Okay.

- And one of the key words in the question you just asked me is change. If you quit expecting change, you're gonna be in trouble.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- You've got to not only embrace it, you've gotta expect it to be coming because it's not going to stay the same. Our business has changed in the last 10 years. And a lot of it's because of perception, a lot of it's because of equipment. Do you ever watch on MLB Ken Burns about baseball?

- Oh sure.

- Do you ever look at the field?

- [Scott] Never paid much attention.

- I never look at the players first. I always look at the field. Next time you watch it and it's black and white, look at the field.

- [Scott] Okay.

- Ugly. Ebetts Field. I'm sitting there with my wife and I says, "Now watch this," 'cause I'd seen an excerpt before. The game is over at Ebetts Field. Everybody comes out of the bleachers, gets on the field, and walks through the center field gate on the grass.

- [Matt] No! Oh.

- I'm going-

- [Matt] No!

- "I would be yelling and screaming, Vicky." You're not gonna do that.

- Oh no.

- And I'm going, that's got to impact. So as you see things change, cutouts, fungo circles, different things at different ballparks. Fenway does something that it's only a major league ballpark that does what I do. And next time you look at home plate, I mean at first and third, their cutouts are rounded. Well, think about it. When you're dragging a field, can you drag an inside square corner?

- [Scott] It's tough.

- You're gonna have to get off and rake it. So they round it off. Well, I built mine like that and then I looked and saw, well, Fenway does that too. So if I'm a guy taking care of my field and I'm the only one, I'm gonna make it as efficient as I can so everything's gonna be rounded so I don't have to get off my, okay? So it changes, it transitions. So same thing with me. I've been doing this for over 40 years, okay? I started teaching in, I graduated in '76, started teaching in '76, and I'm now 69 years old. Gentlemen, I can't do today what I did when I was 45.

- [Matt] Sure.

- I'm sorry. I can't. My gas tank is not as big. And so I have to get my younger guys to do some of the heavy stuff, and I've got to be willing to change. I've got to be able to step back. And when I had a meeting with Dylan, he hired me. I'm 69, my boys are 40. And so my role has gone from the the big dog running the show, paying the bills. And I've had to step back and I looked at Dylan and I said, "I'm not the future of your company. "Those boys are the future of your company. "My boys, Rick, Ryan." When I leave and I don't know when that is, a year or five years, 10, I don't know. But I realize I can't do as much physically as I used to do. It's time for me to back, slow down, make a change.

- And that is leadership.

- And I know my boys real well, okay? And I know that they see that in me, 'cause I'll be out there shoveling on a hot day, and they'll come up, "Here, dad, let me take that. "You do this, you go get in the buggy, you drive. "I'll shovel." They understand that the end of the day that's taking a toll on me at 69 years old. Whereas... And Vicky said, "Are you trying to keep up with them?" Yeah. The pride in my job and what I do, I'm trying my best to keep up with them. I'm slowing down.

- Yeah.

- Sure.

- But even though I'm slowing down, I still feel like I have a lot to offer, just in a different way.

- So talk to us about that then, because we talked about, I mean, you said it's about transition, right? And what you're learning about change and always embracing change. So what does, in this next season of life for you as a professional groundskeeper, in this next season of life as a leader in the groundskeeping space, what are you excited about? What are you looking forward to?

- Well again, United Turf and Track is not my company, but it is 'cause they bought part of me.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- Okay? So even though my name's not on the line, I'm still part of it. And that's the thing that I think is part in leadership. If you can get a person to take ownership, everything changes. If you do it simply because I told you to do it, that ain't gonna work. That only will last so long. But if you take ownership and at the end of the day you say, "I'll put my name on that. "That's me. "When you look at that, that's Chuck. "When you look at that, that's Colin, "that's Aaron, that's Ryan." Then things are gonna go up, right? And I think in terms of United Turf and Track, we've got a bunch of guys that take ownership, okay?

- [Matt] That's awesome.

- We may not always agree, but we can work it out. We can talk about the differences. But I want Dylan's company to grow. So maybe it's less about me doing the physical work and more about me using my contacts and going out and selling the product so that you guys can keep working in the future.

- Appreciate that by the way.

- 'Cause one of the things that's happening in Oklahoma is that baseball fields are going from natural turf to Synthetic turf.

- [Scott] Right, right.

- That cuts into the natural grass side of the field. So how are we going to pivot and turn a natural grass surface into a Synthetic surface?

- [Matt] Right.

- And make our company happen? So there's the change, and I've started thinking, how can I do this to make it better? Because when I leave, things are still gonna go on, but while I'm here, how can I help them?

- So you're taking on a very much a mentor role, even with your new company.

- Privately.

- Privately, yeah.

- But those are the things that Dylan and I have talked about when we have private conversations, you know?

- Well, and that's very much, you know, your desire to teach and now knowing your history as a teacher, it's one of the reasons why we're excited to have you on as well. And we really appreciate it, Chuck, that you're willing to come on the show with us and share some wisdom, share some knowledge.

- [Scott] This has been great.

- Oh yeah.

- And that's again, in my future, I would love to be there for you guys to help you. And that's where, if I help you, I'm an advocate for the coach.

- [Matt] You bet.

- Or the groundskeeper. Even though I may not even meet 'em or ever know them, but if I can help you build a product to help them, then I touched them.

- You bet.

- And you already have helped us. I mean, you've been a part of ABI now for, I don't know, when did you buy your first horse? Seven years ago? Something like that.

- [Chuck] No, actually I bought it in August of 2020. But that was for me personally.

- Oh yeah, but you were using 'em at USA.

- But I used it at USA, yeah. And when I took over, the Force was the first piece I bought.

- Well, and I love that with you, Chuck, it feels like more of a partnership too, that you want to do right by the players, you wanna do right by the coaches, you wanna do right by the groundskeepers that you work with and us too. So for us to come alongside each other and really work for the good of the industry, the good of the ground, it's fun working with you.

- Yeah, we really appreciate it.

- So appreciate having you on today. If you want to follow along more with Chuck, make sure to check out United Turf and Track. I'm sure you guys are on social media showing off some of the good work that you folks do there in Oklahoma, so check them out. I know you're quite, you've got growing in your domain as you travel across the country and helping different people design and work in their fields. And if you are following along, again, remember that we've got these shows available both on video and audio, so check out your favorite podcast medium or jump on YouTube and check out these videos. But it's been an absolute pleasure. And for everyone watching at home, we'll see you next time.