Dealing with Drainage Issues on Your Field – With Cory Stoneburner

On Episode 3 of Ground Etc., we talk about where the water is going on your ballfield. Our guest, Cory Stoneburner, worked for a company that specialized in ball field installation and renovation. He has been with ABI for two years, and now he’s ready to discuss water pitfalls to avoid and recommend drainage setups to prevent flooding and wash outs.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

- I'm Scott Holmes.

 - I'm Matt Metzger, and you're listening to "Ground Etc." This season, we are going to be talking all things infield grooming, from routine maintenance to leading a grounds keeping team, to serious renovation work. We talked to industry experts of the field on the field about the ground, the work, et cetera.

 - Et cetera.

 - [Matt] That's right.

 - That's why we named it that.

 - Go figure. Oh, goodness. Hey, so today we are talking about drainage on ball fields. And actually my exposure to drainage happened long before I ever stepped on a ball field. Scott, I know that you grew up in rural Indiana.

 - [Scott] I did. Cow communities.

 - Scott has lots of fun stories about cow pies and cow patties.

 - [Scott] Oh yeah.

 - We're not gonna talk about those.

 - Nope. I can entertain.

 - No.

 - No, we're good.

 - We don't have enough time for those, but no, no joke though. My experience with drainage and the importance of water getting away from places you don't want the water to be actually started in the cow pasture. Now I can remember as a little kid trying to bring the cows in, and keep in mind, these cows are like 1200 pound animals, right, and I'm sitting out there at like five years old to go like, make noises and get the cows to come to the barn, right.

 - You're like a hearding dog.

 - I was. Looking back now, yes.

 - [Scott] They didn't wanna buy an Australian shepherd, they had Matt.

 - I was a way lot cheaper to maintain than a sheep dog. Easy to train too, just throw me bits of food. Oh god! But yeah, so I was the sheep dog in the pasture bringing in these cattle and right in front of the barn door where like the grass kinda ends and then all the cows kinda funnel into the same like eight foot wide space to get into the barn each day. Like, all of those hundreds of animals, we had about 300 cows on the farm. We're walking over the same kinda strip of ground and you can imagine that many 1200 pound animals times four hooves each, and you had some nasty . I mean, we're talking like seven, eight, 10 inch, like mud pockets. And so as like five years old with my rubber boots on that didn't probably actually fit that well and I'm walking through it, how many times I would step into one of those mud piles just like thick, deep gushy mud and pull my foot right outta my boot.

 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 - I'm like, I would think there'd be a way.

 - To keep it dry.

 - People have been farming a long time, and even back then as a little kid, I was cynical enough to think like, it's gotta be a better way to do this. Like, this water shouldn't be here, right. Why should it have to be this muddy? So, well, that's my exposure to drainage.

 - Yeah, well, water drainage, it's relevant to anywhere there's ground. It doesn't matter what industry in farming, doesn't matter. Sports, obviously, I'm a golfer. That's my I grew up. I started playing golf when I was eight and my dad taught me, and when I was 10, I beat him and that's the last time we've ever played together. That's beside the point.

 - [Matt] Humble brag, humble brag.

 - Well.

 - [Matt] And now your son kicks your butt, so it comes full circle.

 - Maybe its sort of digging on my dad than its about my golf game. But at any rate, moisture's important there. I mean, moisture management is important there. We have some of the world's leading golf course installers who use ABI equipment and they're about drainage and about slope and about grade, because moisture is critical to all aspects of ground maintenance.

 - Yeah.

 - And we just did a podcast with Cory about maintenance all in ball fields and very, very knowledgeable young man. He gave us a lot of great insight.

 - Well, and it's drainage is so crucial too, because it's one of those things that you can't avoid. You can't avoid rain, you can't stop the weather, right.

 - [Scott] You can't say, God, we don't want rain.

 - There are some things you can stop. There's a real fun story heard just recently from Chuck White talking about somebody may have accidentally forgot to turn off the sprinkler system when the tarp was put on.

 - During the World Series, if I'm not mistaken. We didn't get that story with him and I've heard that story.

 - That'll be a story to get from Chuck, later. So sometimes you can avoid water on your ground. But most of us, most often cannot avoid rain coming down and if you've got a trick for that, then please leave a comment somehow. Please contact us and let us know.

 - Or make a million dollars. If you could stop the rain, but.

 - But you can't stop the rain from coming so how do you deal with it once it gets.

 - Right, and it is critical to efficiency when maintaining a ball field or a municipality or you're trying to get a lot of games in.

 - [Matt] Yeah.

 - I've heard some of our contacts through the years say, with the right equipment and the right drainage preparation, we can get 20, 30% more games then. Well, that's real money.

 - [Matt] That's incredible. Yeah.

 - Its real money, right?

 - [Matt] Absolutely.

 - And that's a big difference when you actually control the moisture content of the ground and in the sky, so yeah, moisture's very important and we covered it all with Cory.

 - Yeah, so if you are in this situation where you're working on ball fields, if you're working on infields and sports surf, and you are curious on how to better manage the water that comes down on top of your soil, take a look. Today we are talking with our ABI's own Cory Stoneburner. Cory's been here at ABI for the past two years now. Cory, welcome to the show.

 - Welcome.

 - Thank you guys, appreciate it.

 - So Cory actually, the reason he's around the table. So you played ball your whole life growing up, right?

- Yes, yep.

- All the way through elementary, all the way through high school and then after college, you jumped in working for a company that you were installing lawns, doing some landscaping, as well as working on professional ball fields, right?

- [Cory] Yep, yep, exactly.

- Right on, and so that's when you came to a ABI then, that's one reason you're around the table on the Force team, and so, since Cory's been at ABI in the past two years, he has been working with groundskeepers and facility operators and owners and working with municipalities and minor league affiliates, and you've been on some pretty impressive fields and you've talked with some industry experts and leaders.

- A hundred percent. Yeah.

- And you're gonna share some wisdom with us today, right. You're gonna give us all the secrets, everything you've learned.

- All of it. And not to toot my own horn, I actually was on my first NFL stadium this year as well, NFL Stadium.

- [Scott] With Force?

- Yes sir, yep.

- [Scott] What were you doing?

- So basically, it was real grass football field. They've got multiple people that come in and outta these fields playing on 'em. So they have to rip out the end zones when one logo's on it to put down new turf, and when you're doing that, you got a big old tractor. It's leaving tire ruts and everything. So we took the Force in there to groom out those areas and get 'em pretty again for new side to be laid down.

- Ah, perfect.

- No kidding. So, how did you get into infield grooming in the first place? I mean, I know you played ball, but what was your initial exposure? Talk us through what that was like and that kind of transition from playing to working on the field.

- Sure, so it definitely came from the company that I worked at. When we're doing these renovations and installs, you wanna leave the product looking nice when you're all finished up working on whatever field you're working on and just getting into good practices, learning from, like you said, industry experts out there.

- So, you were at a company that did both ground preparation, seed preparation, as well as sports turf installations. What made you focus over and really get really focused on the sports turf instead of going with the ground prep.

- Sure, so as you can imagine, you can get away with a lot more on a soil type job working on someone's lawn. When you're working on a ball field, you have to be precise, especially when it comes to laser grading, especially when you're working on drainage projects. So really, taking a look at the deeper details when it comes to ball field work was really appealing to me. It's been a lot of fun working with industry leaders out here, learning different practices that people like to use when it comes to ball field grooming and maintenance. So that's really what caught my eye coming into the ball field work.

- Well, obviously you're a good communicator, and you're passionate about what you do, and therefore you make a good salesperson for us. But what took you away from the actual installation of the fields into selling equipment? I mean, what made that a transition for you, where you're working with your hands to now working with your knowledge and your voice? What brought you to that point?

- Sure, so, I mean, growing up I worked on a crop farm. That's what I did from about the age of 12 to 21, I've always been working in dirt using equipment, driving big pieces of machinery. When I switched there after college and started working for the sports turf installation company is a lot of on your hands and knees, tampon boxes, all that kind of stuff, pitchers, mounds. I've got a passion for machinery. That's where my heart lies. That's what I've done my whole life. So the fact that I was able to join ABI and start selling the forest demo in the forest around the country, that was huge for me, and that's my passion. That's what I like to do. I like to operate, sell. Not only that, it's a little bit cleaner, typically, I'm not completely filthy every single day. So both those hand in hand, man. It worked out really well for me.

- So you really had the best of both worlds. You had the passion for baseball and for sports fields.

- Yeah.

- And a passion for equipment.

- Yeah.

- Cool.

- I played sports from such a young age and not only baseball, football, soccer. I've been part of all of it. So the fact that I get to stay in the sports realm is pretty good.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- So now, when you were playing ball growing up, were you working in a space where people kinda explained the value of the ground? Like what was the quality of the fields you were playing on? Did you have anybody in your space that they were talking about how important the field is? Like when did that first come to light for you as far as like the understanding, like the ground is so important to the play of the game.

- Probably the first time you take a ball on the face, huh? That what does it, that's what does it, yeah. So, growing up on Little League Fields, you see dandelions or daisies coming up on your infield surface and as an infielder, you're paying attention to that, grabbing it with your cleats, ripping it out and all that kind of stuff. So playing on a nicer ball field, you get to focus a lot more on the game. You're not focusing on your external factors. You're not worried about a ball taking a bad hop hitting you in the face. It's huge playing on a nice infield surface. You get to focus completely on the game and I think you play your best, you're most comfortable.

- So you mentioned Little League.

- Yeah.

- Is there a difference in the infield design compaction?

- Sure.

- I mean, between Little League, high school, college.

- Yeah.

- Semi-pro, pro.

- A hundred percent.

- Yeah.

- Yeah. I mean, typically on your Little League Fields, you're gonna find a steeper slope, either trying to get that water off the field. You're not gonna have guys out there tarping when it's gonna rain like you do for MLB stadiums or college fields. So there is definitely a difference going from a lower level field up into your higher ranks. Not only that, typically you're gonna find, as you increase in a higher ranking field, there's gonna be a higher clay content, which means you have to manage it more. There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes into it, but yeah. Big differences when you go from Little League Fields up to your high rank fields.

- Well, and that insight that you just shared too, on like the being able to focus on the game, right? I mean, that's something that only a player can understand, that when you're out there and you're trying to focus and dial in and do your best work, how can you make the field as distraction free as possible, right. And that's just another added advantage to somebody being really intentional about caring for the field.

- [Cory] Yeah, yeah. I mean, lip management, when you're outfield lips, making sure that's not building up where a player might trip over it, going for a PopFly, making sure there's not a bunch of high and low spots in your infield surface alone that you may trip over running from base to base. Of course, laser grading is a huge thing that we preach here at ABI, making that field as safe as possible for your players, getting that water to drain off where it needs to go, all that stuff really plays a huge factor.

- Well, that kinda leads us into our topic. I mean, I know that we wanted to talk to you a lot about moisture management and I mean, for a novice out there, who would've thought that you were watering dirt as often or as little.

- Yeah.

- I mean, you go to most fields and they've got the sprinkler heads and I suppose that works, but man, the expertise and the knowledge that you have to have to maintain the proper moisture content. Talk to us about moisture management.

- Yeah, it's something that I've really come to fruition here, traveling around the country. I almost look at it like the commandments when it comes to watering your ball field and grooming your ball field. They're hardly greater than one another. Water management is so crucial because you get huge windstorms that come across. If you don't have any moisture in your infield mix there, your clay particles, your sand particles are gonna get caught in that wind. It's gonna take it out into your outfield and that's how your lips honestly start to form. More often than not is from wind. Obviously, rain events come along as well, that wash material into your grass too.

- So again, you've been on a variety of fields, different qualities of play, different calibers of play. When you walk onto a field for the first time and you've got someone who says, "Hey, I've got some issues, I don't quite know what's going on." Maybe a couple ideas here and there. Like what are some of the most common issues you see when it comes to drainage?

- Yeah, the first one right off the top, man, is gonna be that lip that forms out there in your outfield.

- [Matt] See, that's interesting. 'Cause I don't think a lot of people would relate lip issues with drainage issues.

- [Scott] No, I would think it'd be grooming.

- Yeah.

- That's interesting.

- But you're saying the lips along with that turf, they are directly resulting of drainage problems.

- Drainage issues, or it could also be grooming practices. I say there's a two foot rule when you're grooming your ball field, you wanna stay two feet away from your edges. If you throw your rear drag, if you're pulling a steel drag mat or cocoa mat or broom, and you've got material flying across that edge, potentially, if you get too close to that edge, you could be throwing some material out into that grass and solely over time, those lips will start to form.

- [Scott] Got it.

- There's ways to prevent it. I'm sure we'll get into that later, but yeah, grooming practices are a huge thing into why lips build up.

- But that's interesting that moisture plays a part in that too.

- Yeah, a hundred percent, and that's one thing I wanted to touch on more. When you're dealing with an infield surface that's got a high clay content, you guys have seen what happens to clay when it sits out in the sun and bakes over a summer. It turns to concrete.

- [Scott] Like this table.

- Exactly. And it becomes almost like a hydrophobic layer on there where it's not accepting water. Those particles are glued together and it's shutting water to the outfield, yes. But then you are left with that slimy, nasty top surface clay. If you introduce water to that, it actually gets between those clay particles, breaks 'em down and allows movement of water through your infield mix and not just across the top. So water management, you guys, once again, I'm sure you've been to MLB games. They're out there so often watering those ball fields and that's why. An infield's gotta be able to take in water as well as shed water.

- All right, so, ABI has different divisions and one of our markets is equestrian. I know a little bit more about watering in a horse arena. But in a horse arena, we talk about the whole profile, with water on an infield, are you just trying to get the top quarter inch? Are you trying to get two inches? I mean, how much moisture, how much water does it take? And I know there's probably variables that play into that.

- [Cory] Sure.

- And locations and seasons. I get all that. But, I mean, are you trying to water just the top quarter entry? Are you trying to water the whole profile of the soil?

- It's really gonna depend on that type of soil. So something with a higher clay content. I mean, I've been out to MLB stadiums the night before and they will have a half inch to an inch of standing water on their ball field because they want to soak all the way through that profile. And that's really what creates a smooth soft surface as well, is breaking those particles down a little bit, where they're not light concrete. Something like sand, if you're working in that, you really only need to get the top half inches. So it's gonna dry out quick anyways. But you're just trying to keep dust down. The dust abatement's huge, just like it is in a horse arena. Before a game, throw some water down on your sand based field and that'll keep that top surface steady.

- So what I'm hearing, I don't mean to be taking over.

- [Matt] No, you're good.

- 'Cause I'm interested. What I'm hearing is that the higher quality, quality, maybe the higher level of play requires a denser material, which actually requires more maintenance.

- [Cory] A hundred percent.

- Than a Little League. I would think it'd be the opposite. I would think you had a Little League field with very cheap sand and you'd have to maintain that a lot more than you would. And I actually, I think I'm hearing maybe the opposite.

- Yeah, I mean it's tough. You're with limited resources when it comes to Little Leagues, typically. Typically, they're nonprofit organizations. You got volunteers coming in, taking care of your ball fields. You try to make it as easy as possible for those people to keep up with that kind of surface. And when it comes to clay, the professionals and the hiring ball players are not gonna want to play on a concrete surface like that. So it does, you have to be out there watering consistently three, four times a day, grooming consistently, nail dragging. Whereas sand based field, there's really not too much maintenance needed. I mean, there definitely still is, but that sand really allows water to flow through it a lot quicker. You don't have to worry about having a correct slope as much to get that water off to your outfield grass.

- So now we're talking a lot about maintenance so far. What about in a scenario, and we actually talked about this with Chuck White, where he had the opportunity to come in and help design a couple of fields.

- Right.

- And Cory, I know that you've been tapped into to help out with some installs as well.

- Yeah, yep.

- And sometimes you're asked for some advice on how to prep a field like from ground up. So with keeping drainage in mind, what are some tips you can give folks who say, "Well, I'm trying to start a field from scratch." How do people keep drainage in mind when they're building a new field?

- Sure. I mean, the first big thing when you're working on a project like that, where do you want the water to go? There's different setups that you can have. You can have drainage systems out in your outfield. You could be using grass as your drainage system to pull water into the roots. You could potentially have stormwater drain systems that you're trying to tap into with your infield drainage as well. So when it comes to the renovation side of things, you really have to base how you're grading that ball field dependent on where do we need the water to get to? Do you have drains on the foul lines area that you need the water to get to? Or once again, are you trying to get to the grass? It kind of varies a lot when it comes to the renovation side. On the install side, the company that I worked for, we took drainage very seriously and we would actually install full drainage systems underneath the entire ball field.

- Yeah.

- Where you've got drain tile extending from basically the batter's box all the way to your outfield that's gonna be covered in rock and sand. So the whole idea is that once that water starts draining through your soil profile, it's gonna hit that rock sand, it's gonna go down quicker, hit those drain tiles and take it out of the ball field. So, it's really dependent on budget. Obviously something like that costs quite a bit of money for the full install.

- Sure.

- I would say though, honestly, sometimes that install, the full install work can be a lot easier 'cause you're creating everything. You're not working with anything that's already existing. There has been times on renovation jobs that you run into this drain tile and it's completely filled up with dirt and you gotta rip it all out of there, cut the new tile in again. Some of that stuff can get pretty aggressive at times. But yeah, those are the two big things you're looking for on the renovation, installation type jobs.

- So if not everybody has the budget of a major league team or even a collegiate team.

- Right.

- I mean a lot of municipal, I mean if you wanted to categorize ball fields in the country.

- Yeah.

- 80% are municipality owned, right?

- [Cory] Yeah, a hundred percent.

- So they don't always have the biggest budgets.

- [Cory] Yeah.

- And they most often have preexisting fields. I mean, certainly, there's new Little Leagues being built all the time, but I would think the majority are preexisting. How do you help a small budget field that's got drainage problems? I mean how do you tackle that? And again, a lot of variables, but give us your best shot here.

- Sure, yeah. One thing that we always tried to instill in people is if you were limited on money, what we like to do, what we found to be the cheapest route, was actually getting that ball field pitch to where your water is going towards your outfield grass. That's the first step is make sure that that's correct. We then go through and we eliminated any kind of lip that would've formed around that infield surface as well. Then we would take an excavator bucket and we would cut down two or three feet right along that outfield edge, dig down and you replace it all with rock and you create somewhat of a French drain.

- [Matt] Got it.

- [Scott] Got it.

- You guys know what that is?

- [Matt] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- You backfill that with gravel and sand, get new sod growing on that and it actually creates a nice little reservoir on that back end of the ball field to hold water. It's honestly pretty affordable. It doesn't take too much work.

- That's great, good advice.

- Yeah, so I mean if you're a municipality, some of these places are park district, even that are working with 10, 20, 30 fields. I mean I've got a park district that I work out in Virginia, they're taking care of 120 ball fields.

- [Scott] Crazy.

- It's unreasonable to think that you're gonna hire some outside contractor to come in laser grade these ball fields perfectly, or even install some sort of subsurface drainage. Something like this that I was just describing with your excavator, it's a way more affordable for a place like that to take care of, multiple ball fields.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- Just way easier on the pocketbook.

- [Scott] Yeah.

- [Matt] Yeah, no kidding.

- [Scott] Makes sense.

- Yep. But there's still grading involved though. I mean, you can't do without a little bit of renovation.

- There is, yes, hundred percent.

- Yeah.

- So, let's go to that end of the spectrum then. So we've talked installs, we've talked renovations on some high dollar operations where you can afford to put in, kind of, a subsurface drainage system. We've talked about kind of a middle ground then of a lower budget kind of French drain situation. But what about the listener who says like, "Cory, these are all great ideas, man, but like, even that's outside of my pocketbook." Let's say, well, here in town, right? Like a local Little League has eight fields in a complex. It's all volunteer. They do great work, they do great things, everyone's dedicated. But I mean, there's the little chance they're gonna be able to take an excavator out in the field. They're really talking it's maintenance practices to help with drainage problems. What do you recommend?

- Some sort of attachment, I've heard of people using even like I-beams before and take 'em out in their ball field. Just to level 'em off. You need to get water outta the infield surface and typically, your best bet, the easiest bet is just get it to the grass with whatever equipment you have. Most places have a lawnmower, even ABI actually sells a nice piece of equipment for lawnmowers as well are infield grader that you can actually grab material and level off your ball fields. Just get that water to the grass. That's the biggest thing. Get rid of your highs and low spots that may potentially be holding water. Get that all to your grass. The grass will take it in naturally and it'll be a much quicker alternative that you can take and by far the most affordable.

- Yeah.

- Got it.

- So there are a lot of different ways that you can water. Okay, I've seen sprinklers, I've seen water trailers, I've seen water trucks, I mean, at municipalities. What are some of the pros and cons on how you water? And I've always wondered if the sprinkler system is actually the very best or not, and it may be, I just don't know.

- Yeah, the sprinkler system is nice just 'cause you flip it on, it's there. You've got full control. With a water tank, you have to worry about it running out obviously. So you're kind of limited on your capacity of water that you can hold. The best, in my opinion, once again is what you see on most MLB stadiums. They've got a center, what would you wanna call it, center?

- [Matt] Like a faucet, like a center output, right?

- Yeah, a center output that they can connect into. They can walk the whole field with a 60 foot hose, water everything down. You are visually seeing what you're doing. It's probably the most accurate. Sprinklers, you may get a little bit of overlap if you got 'em going in the outfield, in the infield. But it's super easy at that point, you're just flipping a switch to get those guys going. Water trailer is also a great alternative though as well. ABI makes those, fan out the water amazingly out the back pretty even. And once again, it's quick transport from field to field, with the water trailer, you can get across it pretty quick. So I've heard of people using, just put down a quick quarter inch of water on your ball field right before the game, dust abatement, keeps it cleaner for the players.

- I could certainly see if you've got a lot of fields. You're not gonna have sprinkler system in 75 fields probably.

- Sure.

- Wouldn't the people to move it around, right. I mean, who's gonna turn 'em on and off and move the sprinkler heads and make sure that it's not too much.

- So I could see water trailers being a really good option for them.

- [Cory] Yeah, and they're quick.

- And they're quick, yeah. I watch these guys go out there with the hoses, and you got one guy standing behind and it takes 'em forever, I don't know, it just seems...

- Yeah.

- But accuracy, I get it. I get the accuracy.

- Yeah.

- Accuracy and on a high caliber fields. High caliber play where you've got dedicated personnel. But once you switch over into those situations, municipalities, park districts that have 120 fields like, you don't have staff for that.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So Cory, we definitely want some story time. We want the like some fun stories, some stories where they said this was a huge success. So give us maybe like a success story of like, "Hey this field was in rough shape and then it turned around because you were able to help with either some of the drainage issues they were having." But we want a nightmare story or two, man, what's the worst field you've ever come across?

- So, one pops to my mind immediately on the worst end of things. At the company that I was working for, we had actually traveled out to Dubuque, Iowa, corn country. Nothing but corn fields out there and we were doing a full ball field installation when we were literally given a piece of property with one steak. Can you guys guess what that one steak was? My test to you.

- Home plate or pitchers?

- The tip of home plate, that's all we were given. From that you triangulate.

- [Scott] You had to build the whole stadium outta that?

- Off one steak is where they said, we want the tip of home plate right here.

- [Matt] No picther, no pressure.

- Was there a specific view?

- Yeah, it was cornfields.

- Okay.

- Like in any direction?

- Oh they gave us a general direction, yes.

- that way.

- Yes, yeah. So we were given that one steak, off that, you triangulate your bases depending on the field that you're in and then you can hit your foul poles as well. That's all based off the tip of home plate, if you guys didn't know that.

- [Scott] Yeah, no, that's interesting.

- So during this project, we're cutting out the infield and everything and we get pretty far into the project and obviously the days end. We get home that evening and we get this freak storm over at the Mississippi River out there and we got four and a half inches of rain in one evening. And mind you, we are about eight hours from home at this point. And we go back to the ball field and it's just completely soaked. And it was three days that we had to stay out there until we can get back on the ball field.

- Wow, yeah.

- [Matt] Wow.

- Unfortunately no amount of laser grading will help out four and a half inches of rain.

- [Scott] Oh come on.

- So it was still cool. I mean we got to go out and enjoy the Mississippi River in the time off. But that was by far one of the worst situations that we ran into on the install side of things.

- So that definitely sounds like a nightmare of four inches of rain in one night. What about your best renovation story? What about a situation where things like just kind of knocked outta the park and you were just thrilled with the result when it got done?

- Yeah, there's another one that pops to mind immediately. We were up in northern Michigan, I think it was north of Grand Rapids actually, so I guess more central. But we were working on this ball field that was struggling with huge water issues. I mean after a half inch of rain you couldn't even step in the outfield. It was straight clay. The stuff just was not taking water into it and they needed some work done. So we went through with our trenching system and actually created drainage systems out in their outfield and we actually ended up cutting through the infield as well.

- [Scott] Wow, that's major.

- Yeah, and it was a mess. Cutting through clay, there were huge rocks that we were cutting through as well. Trying to get down deep enough for these trenches. It was a mess, but it was so cool. I remember it so vividly. We got the drainage system finished up, went home for the night, came out the next day. That night we had connected, I guess I should have said that night we connected the drainage system into their stormwater drainage system.

- Yeah.

- We came back that next morning and from our drains, you could literally see water flowing through them into their stormwater drain engine. It was like nice. The work we're doing is actually...

- [Matt] It's making a difference.

- Yeah, like it was immediately providing results for these guys. So that was pretty cool experience up there in Michigan.

- Did you get a good feedback?

- [Cory] Oh yeah, oh yeah.

- Changed how they played their games.

- Yeah, and it's cool the way that we did it. So we would install these drains, we'd cover 'em up with rock and then we'd go through and put sand on top. We could go through with strips aside, lay right on top of that sand and they could play on it almost immediately.

- [Scott] Wow.

- [Matt] That's incredible.

- So, it's a quick turnaround doing work like that and it's immediate results, literally immediate.

- [Scott] That's fantastic.

- Yeah, yep.

- And any fields that hired you guys to fix and it was just far more.

- Oh yeah, that happens all the time.

- Worse than what they ever... I mean they soft selled you. I mean they said, "Oh it's just a little bit of grading needs to be done." And you had to actually tear it up and start over.

- [Cory] You expect that almost, yeah. I mean, on the renovation side of things, it's unfortunate. You have to deal with what's already existing when you're doing a renovation. You've got your existing edges that you're trying to match up to and oftentimes from the bare eye, things don't look that bad. And when you start getting 'em with precise equipment that's trying to laser stuff in, you realize that your lips may be a little uneven at spots and you gotta take out soil here, fill in soil here. I've got nothing specific that comes to mind, but definitely if you are someone getting into the renovation type work, expect delays to happen when you're doing that work.

- Well, you said something there and this is not necessarily a plug for our equipment. I'm interested in your take or your insight on equipment versus manpower. Lemme try this a different way.

- [Cory] Yeah.

- Certainly if you had all the budget in the world, you would have a better drainage. But if you don't have all the budget in the world and you are someone who's passionate about equipment, is there equipment out there? What would you recommend for someone, and I know you're gonna say the Force 'cause that's what you sell. But let's talk about ground components and let's talk about how you use equipment to actually help somebody who doesn't have a big budget.

- Yeah, the huge step, and there are different levels that you can get into, but you gotta have something that can grab material and pull it around from point A to point B. They make attachments for tractors, skid steers that do all this. Obviously my personal favorite's the ABI Force. You've got the full hydraulic control of that box blade there at the mid mount. You can grab your high spots, pull 'em right into your lowest spots all while moving, it's very quick and easy to do. Yeah, just a little bit of research and you can find a lot of products out there. And even ABI sells, like I mentioned earlier, the infield greater, that's much more affordable to a smaller budget place like a Little League. It's got a grading blade on it and you can control it electronically. You can raise and lower it as you're flying around the field. Still do some pretty nice grading work with it.

- Yeah. So if you don't have a big budget equipment, some times is your best cost.

- [Cory] Yeah, yeah.

- , spend the least and get the best results.

- One thing I wanted to mention along those same lines is there's a lot of companies out there now doing this kind of work, renovation type work, where they're coming through with different kinds of infield mix and laser grading 'em out and what I try to preach when I'm talking to people, you gotta protect that investment. Sometimes these people are dropping five, 10, $15,000 on a ball field to get it back into shape. Sometimes they're taking out all the infield mix, coming in with brand new stuff. You gotta have something or else you're gonna fall right back into the same problems that you were at before.

- If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got, right.

- Yeah, yeah.

- [Matt] So, let's help some people out then, then Cory. So you've got, you mentioned there are more and more companies these days who are willing to come in, willing to renovate, willing to help kind of bring your ball field back to life.

- Yeah.

- If somebody listening is responsible for a ball field and they've decided, you know what, like I don't have the budget to do this myself. I'd rather just pay someone to come in and do it for me and bring things back to life. What are some recommendations you would give the head groundskeeper or the facility operator as they're looking for different companies to come in and do the work? What should they look for?

- Yeah, I would say the first one when it comes to these kind of companies and make sure they're credible, you wanna make sure they've got good work history and that they're actually doing good work out there. I've heard some horror stories about companies coming in doing that kind of stuff. But when it comes to budget, especially, one thing I preach is, that there's almost a direct correlation to a high clay content, like we've already talked about, its more management needed. So if you are looking at getting multiple fields worked on, I would go for something more sand based where you don't need to water it so often, like you do something with clay. Now if you're taking care of one or two ball fields, if this is like a high school, you just have your softball and baseball field, you can get away with going with the higher clay content mix. Something like DuraEdge makes three different varieties that you can go with. It is gonna require more management. But my opinion and from what you see on the professional ball fields, you do get some better and more consistent play out of it.

- [Matt] Sure.

- [Scott] Sure.

- Yeah, well I appreciate you said check the credibility, right? I mean references matter so much in this industry and you know, we've got some great partners and many of whom are probably gonna be on the show here.

- [Scott] Yeah, yeah.

- Over the next couple the episode over time. But definitely, checking up on the credibility, checking up on the reputation, who have these companies installed for? Who else have they worked with? And don't be afraid to ask for those contacts, right.

- Is it critical for a contractor to be able to laser grade? I mean, I know contractors going there, I don't need laser equipment, my eye is so good.

- Right, right.

- You know what I mean, is that something that you just have to have if you're doing a renovation?

- I believe it's critical, yes. Once again, it kind of falls into that budget when it comes to, oh, whoever's paying for the work done. Obviously if you're using laser grading technology, it's typically gonna cost a little bit more. Yes, I think you're gonna get a nicer end product, but yeah, it may cost a little bit more to do it. And there are some guys out there that do a pretty nice job by eye. They're more power to 'em. But I don't think you can beat, obviously, a laser graded ball field.

- [Matt] Sure, yeah.

- So, you mentioned that obviously a laser graded field is the best, right.

- [Cory] Yeah, yep.

- I see a trend and I know we've been part of this trend, because the Force, you can laser gray with the Force, right?

- [Cory] Yeah, yeah.

- But the old way of doing it was to hire, as you have mentioned, hire an outside crew to come in and laser grade. But I'm seeing a lot more municipalities, even Little Leagues. For goodness sakes, churches. I've seen churches buy a laser graded Force, right.

- [Cory] Me too.

- Is laser grading something that anybody can do? Is it hard? I mean, talk to us about the practicality of a municipal facility actually doing their own laser grading and what kind of money does that save for them?

- Yeah, it's honestly a great question. It's one that's becoming more and more prevalent as we keep diving into this market. There is a little bit of learning curve to laser grading, yes. I'm not gonna lie about that. Thankfully, ABI offers up all the training needed if you were to purchase a Force on the laser grading, we show you the math, everything involved in order for you to take the machine back home and be able to use it. If you've ever gone out to these contractors that we were talking about before, that kind of work when they're coming in laser grading, it's not cheap. It adds up over time and like you said, if we're looking at 20, 30 ball fields that we're trying to manage. I mean these could be two, three, $4,000 a ball field to come in and have someone laser grade 'em for you, so.

- [Matt] Probably yearly.

- Sure, yeah.

- [Matt] It should be.

- Yeah, a hundred percent.

- [Scott] .

- And that's the beautiful thing with the ABI Force is you can come in on your own time, do that kind of work whenever you want. You're not waiting on someone else to come in and do it. And like I just mentioned, the cost savings over time, it's really a no-brainer and we had one where I worked before. We loved it. It did some great work for us.

- [Scott] Yeah, and you know, certainly we're gonna promote the ABI Force. But are there laser boxes?

- [Cory] Yes.

- I mean I've seen ball fields's pull like little laser boxes behind tricycle type. Bunker rakes.

- Yeah, the bunker rakes.

- So I mean, there's more than one way to laser grade. You don't have to have the ABI Force. We want you to have the ABI Force, but you don't have to.

- He just like to refer to a bunker rake as a tricycle right there. That's my favorite reference so far.

- Yeah, well, sorry. All I could think was three wheels look like a tricycle, sorry.

- That's appropriate.

- Yeah. One thing I wanted to mention, and it's one thing that when I'm talking to my customers as well, there's always a place for a tractor or a skid loader, something larger when you're doing this kind of renovation or installation type work. I'm never gonna say the Force is gonna replace an 80 horsepower skid steer. It just doesn't happen. The place that we worked at, we actually had a laser grading blade on the front of our skid steer that would do all that heavy lifting for us. The beautiful thing with the Force, it's nimble, the zero turnability, you can get into your cutouts. It's the light footprint. So you're decompacting as you're working this ball field as well. That kind of equipment just, they work hand in hand so beautifully. That's the practice that we did. We took a tractor or a skid steer to every single job set that we at. You need it. But the Force, in my opinion, there's no better finishing tool than the Force.

- [Scott] Perfect, that's great, man.

- Well, Cory, I appreciate you letting us pick your brain on drainage. Pick your brain on some tips for people in making some renovation changes, some greeting changes to their field. Remember, for everyone listening, you can either listen via your podcast, medium of choice. You can also jump on YouTube, check these episodes out in the video format and stay tuned for future episodes. I'm sure Cory will be back on next time hopefully.

- [Cory] This is fun. This is fun. Yeah.

- Didn't scare you off at all.

- No, no, first time in front of cameras and you got microphones, I'm liking it.

- [Scott] How was it hearing your voice in your ears? Isn't that weird?

- I do it every day. Basically when you have those headphones on at work, you hear your voice all day long.

- Well, thanks for joining us Cory.

- Yeah, of course.

- , Cory. Thanks for joining us everyone.

- Thanks.