Ground Etc.
ABI presents Ground Etc, where we talk all things turf care and ground prep. This podcast is for grounds keepers, landscape contractors, and anyone interested in working in the dirt. From the right equipment, to the right crew, to the strategies needed to run a successful business. We talk to experts of the industry about the ground, the work, et cetera!
Ground Etc.
Starting Out In Sports Field Maintenance – With Leah Withrow
Ever wondered how people get into ballfield maintenance?
Leah Withrow, head groundskeeper at the award-winning Greater Nevada Field, is here to tell you everything you need to know about getting started in sports field maintenance.
Greater Nevada Field named Sports Field Management Association’s Field of the Year Article
- I'm Scott Holmes.
- I'm Matt Metzger, and you're listening to "Ground etc". This season, we're going to be talking all things infield grooming from routine maintenance to leading groundskeeping teams to full serious renovation work. We talk to experts of the field, on the ground, of the work, et cetera.
- Et cetera. All right, in this episode, we have Leah Withrow coming in. The woman has achieved a lot in her life.
- Oh yeah, she's got a heck of a story.
- Oh, a heck of a story. And I think the audience, whether you're watching or listening, gonna really enjoy the interview with her. And in this particular interview, we are talking about how to get started, how to get your feet wet, take that first step onto the field. I mean, I don't know if you're a young kid, if you're a junior high kid, a high school kid, college kid, you could be 45, and want to start a new career, how do you get into sports turf management?
- Yeah, well, I mean, because we heard Taylor talk about how he got started when he was eight years old. But if you've come to love the ground and you develop a passion for the ground, and you want to make this your career, you wanna spend your life working on fields and gradually nicer and nicer fields, and better and better fields, and kind of broader domains with more bright lights then how do you move in that direction. And Leah's definitely paved a path.
- She's gonna be great. But obviously, we don't have Leah here today.
- That's not Leah.
- That's not Leah. No, that's Brandon Holmes. And Brandon is with us, because he is new to a new division with an ABI.
- Yeah, speaking of getting started, right? So, whereas Leah's gonna talk about getting started in her industry, Brandon, you're just getting started here on the ABI Force team.
- Just getting started.
- So you're gonna tell us everything we need to know, right? A full spec sheet.
- I gotta address the elephant in the room.
- [Matt] Yeah.
- We are related.
- What?
- Yes, I know. I have his good looks.
- [Matt] Oh my, we gotta skip past real fast.
- [Scott] I wanted to say he was my brother, but I don't think anybody's gonna buy that.
- It's an insulting.
- No, this is my son. And Brandon, you've not been with ABI very long. You came in in purchasing a couple years ago and you're 30, oh, you will be 30.
- Yes, this is a dad check right here.
- In a couple months, you're gonna be 30. So you didn't just come out of high school and work for ABI. You have your own history.
- Correct.
- You have your own work story. You've created your own career. And we brought you in. I didn't even have anything to do with it, but we brought you in a couple years ago, and now you've switched over to the Force team and working with Sports Dirt. But I am interested a little bit to hear, I mean, I started with ABI in '99 with Kevin.
- Oh yeah.
- And so, you were 5, 6, something like that. So you watched ABI from the beginning to the end. Can you tell me what you've seen? I mean, you weren't a part of ABI and then all of a sudden you stepped into two years ago and you went, "Holy crap, I didn't realize we'd done that."
- Yeah, so it's been very eye-opening. Like you said, I was six when I first saw my first TR3. I remember I have vivid memories of sitting on a flatbed trailer in the dark listening to my dad curse at ratchet straps.
- Now wait a minute, we weren't supposed to tell that story.
- We trusted him to drive truck and trailer.
- Yeah.
- We, it was just me. It was me and Kevin.
- And the fact that we're still around is shocking.
- It is, yeah. So, I mean, going from watching him strap one up, take it out and sell it, to walking through the warehouse watching everything that's going out the door is just, was very eye-opening.
- Because Scott, in the beginning when you were first selling TR3s, how many TR3s would you sell in a given month?
- Well, I don't know-
- Ballpark it.
- About five. But I do know what our first annual, our first full year of a business, I knew what our gross sales were, it's $350,000.
- Right on, in first year and say five or so a month. And so, now we've got five units a month in '99, and we're up to what, 5,300 units in the year?
- Yeah.
- It's a wild increase.
- We're a much bigger company. But one story about Brandon, then we'll get to the topic in hand. But I always knew, and I've always told him that sales is where he needed to be. I've got a picture of this kid at age 10 with a cowboy hat on, cowboy booties in the booth at Congress. No, Equine Fair over in Ohio, and my father's working the booth 'cause it's a family business at that point. And my dad says, "Scott, Brandon just sold the first Rascal." So this couple comes up.
- There you go.
- This couple comes up.
- Did you get any commission on that?
- He got lunch.
- They fed me that day.
- Man, could have been a farmer I heard that same line, "Do I get an allowance?" "No, you get a place to sleep." Go, "Okay."
- So anyway, Brandon's been around a long time. We've got him in the Force division. Ask him anything you want.
- All right, you ready? In position. But really though, what's it like jumping over? I mean, did you grow up playing ball at all, like Little League guy?
- Yes, actually I played Little League and some travel.
- Got it, and so then jumping into, so from a player as a young kid, jumping into working with professional groundskeepers, professionals who work with sports turf all over the country, what's it been like in these first couple of conversations?
- Very humbling.
- Yeah.
- Very humbling. Didn't realize how naive I was about the game of baseball. So, like I said, I played in Little League probably just up until high school. And my baseball experience was actually really bad. It was terrible, yeah.
- Oh no.
- So the way our Little League was set up is we were drafted so each coach would draft each player.
- Interesting.
- Yes. And the same coach drafted me every single year and he was not a very good coach.
- Oh, no.
- And we lost every single game.
- Oh no.
- I can validate the quality of the coach at that point.
- Oh no, bummers.
- Every year.
- That's tough.
- It was because I loved the game so much. And I would always tell my dad, he's like, "Do you wanna play this year?" I'm like, "Yes, I just don't wanna play on this team." He's like, "Well,"-
- "Get drafted."
- He was like, "If you get picked, you commit, you play the entire season."
- Well, and so, for you to still want to play the game, even after a number of years of it not being quite the experience that you wanted to be. That's some commitment man.
- And then I played travel ball as well.
- Got it.
- A little bit. So I've always had a love for the game.
- Right on.
- So love for sports. I mean, you're a football player, a golfer, lacrosse player. I mean, athletics is a big part of our family.
- So what are some, after these first kind of couple of months of conversations, I mean, just what you were at SFMA not so long ago, right?
- [Brandon] Yep.
- So that's the experience there and shaking hands with some professionals. What are some things that, give us a couple of things you've learned right out the gate, maybe for somebody who's brand new listening to this going, "Man, we found this podcast, because we want to learn too."
- Yeah, so the first thing that I realized is ball fields, they're art and I didn't realize that. I spoke to a gentleman, he came in and was talking about his base foundation. And he recently had a player take a bad bounce to the face.
- Yeesh.
- And I just saw in his eyes, he took that personally.
- Yeah.
- Very personally. You see that on TV and you're just like, "Oh, maybe the player could have done something better," but there's somebody that's on the sidelines.
- They're taking responsibility for it.
- And it hits him hard, very hard. And he looked at me and said, "That'll never happen again." So we went out with USA Softball, one of the nights that we were at the show and he probably showed me 500 videos of his field. He was so proud of his field and what he was able to do. So I didn't realize, I mean, I knew that the Force was one of the best infield groomers on the market. I didn't realize what it did for the groundskeeper and the grounds crew.
- And what's needed.
- Yeah.
- I mean, I didn't know.
- Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just gives them the ability to show off their talent.
- Sure.
- I mean, they can do things with that that they can't do with anything else. And them having that ability really makes them stand out and they just love it. The people at the show, they just ranted and raved.
- Right on.
- Every single customer.
- Yeah, that's great.
- So coming into this industry again, as someone who is starting out and familiarizing yourself with the whole landscape and the whole vocabulary and the work and the intentionality and the art behind the ground maintenance, what are some of your goals for learning? What are you looking at first? What are you trying to learn first in order to feel like you really gotta grip on being someone who can assist groundskeepers?
- Sure, sure. So I started a couple months ago. And when I started, I literally knew nothing. I didn't know what the hand rake was used for, what the brooms, I didn't know what conditioner was. Nothing, absolutely nothing. So I had to start off and pretty much just YouTube videos over and over on repeat and just to grasp the basic fundamentals of groundskeeping.
- Yeah, right on. What are you looking forward to most as you get into this? And I know you've already had the SFMA experience and you're gonna be hit the road some more here going into warmer weather in the north and as seasons pick up around the country, what's some highlights? What's some things that are on your calendar that you're excited about?
- Not sure, I'm not sure honestly. I mean, it's still so new. I'm just kind of riding it out, I'm just letting it take me wherever to go.
- I imagine you're getting an education like a hose, taking a drink with a faucet hose. That's probably how you're feeling right now, 'cause I know you're in heavy training on the machine itself, let alone the industry, because the one thing we've done at ABI, and this has been from day 1, my philosophy was anybody who was gonna promote our equipment had to be an expert in the field, not just with the equipment. So, I mean, there were years, man I'm telling you there were years where we would hire salespeople and it was a year of training before they could pick up the phone, because they could learn our equipment in three days. But it takes a long time to learn the industry. So I know that you're getting, you're just getting drowned in landscape contracting and sports turf field maintenance, let alone the equipment. But knowledge is critical to a good foundation, it absolutely is.
- You betcha. So from your time again, like the most recent exposure, you had a chance to talk with a lot of groundskeeping professionals all at once, was that SFMA.
- Sure.
- What are some things that people are looking for? What are some things that people are hoping that problems that we can help solve?
- A lot of municipalities in cities, their baseball fields were put in a long time ago. I spoke to a guy and he had 25 fields, he's managing 25, 30 fields. And he said they were put in so long ago that the root issues, I mean, he needed to take everything out and laser the base from the ground up.
- [Matt] Yeah, so some full renovation. We're actually talking about that soon too, yeah.
- Yeah, yeah. And so, the Force has the potential, it has the capability of offering that to him as well as just the normal everyday maintenance. So he was really excited about that, 'cause he was looking for both, but both weren't in the budget. And so, with the Force, he was able to get what he needed today and then add on to it later.
- That's great.
- Well, and that's really interesting for people who, if, I mean, I know we're talking again, you're jumping into the industry very new. If you've got, if any listener out there is a groundskeeper who's fairly new to the role and they're learning as well, not only are they learning the basics and how do you just maintain, but what if the people who are learning are working on fields that are how many decades old? So there's so much to learn, not only hey, just keeping up with the day-to-day, but what if you've got an aging field as opposed to a brand new field? Or what if you're in a situation where you need to install a field and you've never done that before. So it can feel like a fire hose sometimes.
- It can, no doubt.
- Well Brandon, we're thrilled that you were able to come in and say hi to us as someone who's just starting out as we talk to Leah about just starting out.
- Yeah, it's a good segue into Leah's interview.
- Yeah, well and congrats on jumping onto the Force team. Excited to have you on here and good luck on the journey.
- Yeah, thanks for being here.
- It's a pleasure.
- Leah, welcome. Yes, like that.
- Yeah.
- Come on.
- Blooper right away.
- My prepositions are off today.
- Words are hard.
- Words are hard.
- Thank you.
- Words are hard.
- At least she's sympathetic. No other love anywhere else in this room?
- Not a bit.
- All right, Leah, thanks so much for joining us. Glad to have you here on the show.
- Happy to be here.
- Excited to have you.
- Yeah, so you have a long history in sports turf management. So you born and raised in Nevada, right?
- [Leah] Yes sir.
- And the North Dakota State University.
- Oh, wait a minute. Don't call him sir.
- Oh no, this is rough already.
- For God sake.
- So NDSU.
- We gotta take that right down, go ahead.
- In sports turf grass management.
- Yes.
- And then some internships both with the Brewers and then back over in Nevada. And now you are the head groundskeeper there.
- Yes.
- Goodness, what a journey.
- It was, you say a long history, but I literally feel like I've been here for five seconds.
- But where did it get started? I mean, so no one just goes into this like, "Oh, I'm an accountant and now I'm studying a finance and now I got something, be a groundskeeper."
- How did you just jump into this?
- Where'd the love of the field come from?
- Like most people, you just stumble upon it. So I was touring North Dakota State. My mom's side of the family is all in Fargo. So we were visiting them for the summer and junior year of high school is when you start touring different colleges and stuff. So we were up there for the summer and was touring North Dakota State for their engineering department, they have a really big engineering department. And I saw sports turf management on their majors list and I was like, that's kinda interesting and different. I like sports, I like being outside, we're here, let's just hear what they have to say. So we met with the department head who ends up being my advisor. Great guy, just kind of laid out all the different avenues you could go. You can do golf course, you can do sports fields, you can do landscape, you can do research and development. There were so many different opportunities that when you first see that title, you don't think of all those things. And then I went back to school senior year, took calculus, realized engineering was not gonna be an option real quick.
- It gets all of us. Honestly, calculus, that's a kill shot.
- I was so good at math, I was in all the advanced math classes. I like math was my jam. And then calculus is not math. Not math at all.
- All of my degrees have the very minimal amount of math and it was on purpose.
- Once there's more letters than numbers in the page, I'm like, "No, this isn't flying."
- Calculus made no sense. And so, I was like, well, now I need a backup plan, 'cause I was like engineering, engineering, engineering. And then I had, thank goodness I took that time and went and met with that guy and I was like, okay, I could probably see myself doing something like that. I still wasn't sure, didn't know if I wanted to move all the way from Nevada to North Dakota for this degree. So I reached out to the Diamondbacks. We were spring break my senior year we were in Arizona visiting my grandparents and I literally just went to the Arizona Diamondbacks questions and comments page on their website and was just like, "I'm a senior in high school looking at getting into this, I don't know if I want to, can I shadow your groundskeeper?" I had so many questions and I needed to ask an industry professional.
- What a great idea.
- So smart.
- I just sent it. I was just like, the worst they can say is no, or they don't respond. No harm, no loss. So I just tried it and then within an hour or two I had a response and Grant had me out for two days. I worked a non-game day and a game day and my dad drove me in every day and dropped me off.
- No way.
- He just stood in right field of Chase field where their shop is and you just overlooked the field, overlooked the stadium. And you're like, "Wow," when I come to work every day, this is where I would work, this is my office.
- Wow.
- And I was exhausted. It's my spring break, I should be relaxing and I'm washing wall pads.
- So you weren't in Florida with your friends, you were working a field?
- I was working and-
- Oh wow.
- It didn't matter how tired I was when I got home, I wanted to go back.
- Wow.
- And that's when I knew, I was like, okay, this is something I'd be good at.
- Yeah, not to tie this, well I guess to tie this back, we did an interview with Chuck White. I don't know if you know who Chuck is, but anyway, we did an interview with Chuck and we talked about passion about the need. If you're gonna be in this business, you gotta have the passion, because it's brutal, it's hard. I'm anxious to ask questions about how hard it is.
- But such a catalyst moment too, right? For that point you knew right where you're standing, you could probably go right back to that same spot and take a look at the view like, "Yep, this is what did it for me."
- Yeah, just to have the Diamondbacks and Grant, I don't know if you know who Grant Trenbeath is. He's the head for the Diamondbacks, has been for years, take a chance on an 18-year-old girl who wanted to get into it and took the time to show me everything and all of his assistants, who I still am in contact with today. And I mean, that experience alone, if I didn't have that, I probably wouldn't be here, because that's something that locks it in for you and then you pack up all your stuff from Gardnerville, Nevada to Fargo, North Dakota. That's a big change. You need something big to get you to do that.
- No kidding.
- Sure.
- I mean, cold climate, everything. Big change all the way around.
- Had you ever worked on fields before that time? I mean, like sports growing up, what was your experience with being on a baseball field before that two day shadow?
- Zero.
- Nada.
- No kidding. I assumed you were a softball player.
- No, I actually, I have zero hand-eye coordination. I played soccer for all of my life.
- So you have foot eye, hand coordination?
- Yes.
- Foot coordination, foot-
- [Matt] I see where you're going there. You tried hard.
- I tried hard. I gave it my best effort there. Words are hard like she said.
- Words are hard.
- Words are hard, yeah.
- But when you take the hands out of the equation, when it's literally against the rules to use your hands, I was like, "That sport is for me. I can do that one."
- I could do that.
- I played soccer my whole life. Obviously, played on a lot of park and rec fields. Played on some nicer high school fields, but never been on a baseball field until that moment.
- Yeah, that's crazy.
- Wow.
- And haven't turned back.
- Yeah, no doubt.
- So then that two-day experience in Arizona is what convinced you that that degree, flying all the way to North Dakota and spending time there for a couple years, I noticed you had some internships during that time. So when was the first kind of longer period of time going from that two-day shadowing. When was your first experience to have a longer chunk of time working on a field?
- So I got my first internship the summer after my freshman year of college. So I came home, home with the Reno Aces and worked under their first head groundskeeper, Blanton, who's great. Learned a ton. Really got thrown into the deep end on that one. And I mean, I still loved it every day. Then went back to school sophomore year, summer after my sophomore year I got the internship with the Milwaukee Brewers, which was a huge experience for me, completely different than Minor League Baseball. Crew-size doubles, event load doubles, everything is.
- Budget doubles, I'm sure, everything.
- Yeah, everything is so much bigger which was really cool. And then again, went back to school summer before my senior year. I asked the new head groundskeeper at the Aces. Eric had left, soccer had come in. So we had, we were hosting a soccer team, a semi-professional soccer team and Triple-A baseball in the same stadium. And they had a new head groundskeeper and I was their seasonal assistant there under Joe and kind of got to see the soccer-baseball combo, which was a lot. Again, a whole new experience. So same stadium, different head groundskeeper, different way he runs things. Whole new team involved. And learned a ton that summer. Then graduated, actually got a job at Northern Arizona University as their facilities manager, did the dumb girl thing out of college and followed a boy.
- And well.
- Love Flagstaff, Flagstaff is a gorgeous town, beautiful mountain town in Arizona, but job wasn't for me. This person wasn't for me.
- [Scott] Sounds like the boy wasn't for me either, but that's okay.
- Yeah, definitely not. And Joe Hill, who was at the Aces that last seasonal assistantship had a full-time position open and he was like, "It's yours if you want it." And it was right about the time I was trying to leave and I was like, things work out exactly how they're supposed to and it was just a sign and I went back.
- Let me ask a question, just take a break. Take a deep breath, let me have my question. So obviously, you started young, if you were to give advice, I mean, we have viewers and listeners I'm sure of all age demographics, age groups. If you were to give advice to a young high schooler who says, "Yeah, this is a field that I might be interested in," what's some 1, 2, 3 points that you would give to this young wannabe who wants to get into this market?
- My biggest piece of advice, and I give it to everybody, because it happened to me, is the answer's always no, until you ask.
- Okay.
- Wow, yeah.
- That's a big one, because if I wouldn't have reached out to the Diamondbacks, I would not be here. So you never know what the answer's gonna be. You just have to ask. So reaching out to industry professionals, it's so easy now on social media to send somebody a message. Everybody's email's on every company website. You can reach out to so many industry professionals and ask questions. You don't even have to look for necessarily an internship or a job or just have somebody to talk to. Those avenues are open. And I didn't necessarily have that when I was coming up into it. I had to literally go to the MLB website to get in contact with somebody.
- Do you find that the industry leaders are open to mentoring and giving advice and it's not a closed community, it's a very open community?
- Very open. I mean, our industry in general is just very open to sharing tips and tricks and secrets with each other. And we're so open to getting more people into it just because labor has been so short. And we're just trying to get as many people to know about sports field management as a career option as possible. And so, we are willing to take and field all your questions.
- Yeah, that's great.
- So talk about, and those fantastic advice for somebody who is wanting to get into it, talk to us about the transition from no baseball, softball field experience to now all of a sudden you're into it. What barriers did you face there and what are some recommendations do you have for people who say, "What? Yeah, I've been to a Major League game. I love looking at the field, I'm curious about that. But I've never played ball before,"?
- Yeah, you don't know 'til you know, kind of thing. So I didn't know any better. I walked out there not knowing a dang thing. But people will take you under their wing and really show you and are happy to take the time to show you most of the time. I think the biggest thing you can do is just put yourself out there. I mean, we are at a point in this industry where there are no barriers for the kids coming up into this. We were finally at career highs for salaries. Assistants are making twice what I was making-
- Wow, that's fantastic.
- As my first-
- That's great-
- Job outta college. I mean, there's so many jobs open. You have your pick of any city, any job, everybody's hiring type thing, which I didn't have either. So we're really hitting a shift where unfortunately the professionals in it are needing help and there's just not a lot of it.
- So let me reverse a question. So that's the advice, a positive advice. What would be, and there's no such thing I guess is negative, but what would be a warning? I mean-
- Don't do this if.
- Yes, if you're young and you wanna get into this field, here's some things you need to know that don't do or be prepared for this. I mean, what are some of the other advice?
- Well, you mentioned it earlier, this is a labor of love. You really have to be passionate and really love coming into the stadium every day. You have to really love the science behind what we do every day, because it's not a nine to five. You don't get to just come, clock in and clock out and have your weekends off. That does not exist in this-
- So leaning on rake is not a good idea?
- No.
- If you'd rather lean on it than rake it, it's probably not for you, right?
- No, this is a, it is a labor industry, but it's more than that. I mean, there's a whole science behind it and an art behind it and a passion behind it. And it's all of those things together that make it what it is. And that's why you see this amazing fields, an MLB network or on Sundays for NFL games. There's a lot of passion and love that goes behind it. And if you truly don't love it, you're gonna hate it.
- Well, I think that's great advice right there. That's a good, that's a negative advice.
- That's fantastic. If you don't love it, don't pursue it, 'cause it's gonna reach out.
- I mean, even I who absolutely love my job, I can't see myself doing anything else. There are days where I question my life decisions and I'm like, "Is this really what I decided to do?" And then you have the next day you come in and everything is quiet and team's out of town and you just do a quick spray and you get to see the grass just start glowing in the sun and you can leave that day or whatever it is.
- So it looks to me, and I know HR, we can't ask things about age. I mean, I understand that, but you look like you're still young. So it looks like you did this in quick order. I mean, it looks like you moved up the career path quickly. What brought you some of that success that you were able to achieve this level at such a young age?
- Honestly, this surprised me just as much as everybody else. So in 2020, I was going into my second year as a full-time assistant and we had played one soccer game, the world shut down and then my boss left in a matter of a week.
- Oh wow.
- It was a whirlwind. And I love Joe Hill is probably my number one mentor and a great guy who I looked up to entirely. And to have him leave, I was just heartbroken, because I wasn't ready to take over. He was my safety net, that's what I felt I needed. And he felt I was ready. And so, his confidence kind of built my confidence in my own self.
- What a great word, yeah.
- And then obviously having 2020 where we didn't end up having a season kind of got to dip my toes into the water of being a head groundskeeper without the pressures completely.
- [Matt] Yeah, makes sense.
- I mean, I was the only one besides 24-hour security in the stadium every day. So I was able to start testing all of my management practices, fertilizing, keeping things neat and tidy until we could play before getting the full season thrown on me. So that was I guess, a huge advantage I had over maybe somebody coming up in it who has the same situation, but then has to play a season in that year, their boss leaves. I could not imagine playing a season after that.
- That would've been brutal.
- Yeah, well, and I don't wanna miss the opportunity here. I mean, we're talking about your success earlier in your career and not only have you kind of risen to the responsibility of head groundskeeper, but you and your team actually won an extraordinary honor, right?
- Yes.
- I mean, SFMA a couple months ago, Greater Nevada Field was named the 2022 Professional Baseball Field of the Year. I mean, that's remarkable.
- That's incredible.
- That's a coveted award. And here you are a couple years into you're leading the team and you get the award, how did that feel?
- I mean, when Leah called me with SFMA, I mean I cried. Just because the emotions of all those hours, all that hard work that you put in, those late nights, it was all worth it. And to be validated by my peers, 'cause it's voted on by your peers and that's what really matters to me. There is an MILB Groundskeeper of the Year or whatever, and there's other factors that get factored into that unfortunately, where this award is strictly based on safety, playability, aesthetics, your maintenance program. And then they all balance that on how much staff you have, which is for me isn't a lot. So to see that what little we have time for and every detail that we do put into it was noticed and was noticed by industry professionals who I look up to, I mean, I could've, I was just a puddle for a while there. And then I called everybody I knew, called everybody I knew and I was like, "Guess what?"
- That's great.
- I went to the store, I bought champagne and me and my roommate popped some champagne that night and it was just an unbelievable feeling, like a relief that I've made it.
- And that you've been seen.
- Yes.
- I mean, everybody wants to be seen for their effort.
- Absolutely, because it's not a nine to five, this is like your gut's going into this so many hours.
- Well, this industry is, we say it a lot, it's a thankless industry. A lot of what we do is behind the scenes and not a lot of people see what we do. Our front office comes in every morning and the field's ready. At noon when they come in and I'm like, well, I've been here for four hours and you guys are just showing up, you missed all the exciting parts. But to have other professionals who know what it takes, recognize, it was a really, that's intense feeling.
- Well, congratulations.
- Thank you.
- That's that's awesome.
- Huge deal there. Huge deal.
- Yeah, all right, so Leah, you mentioned very briefly staffing issues. And there isn't, I mean, I own a business, Matt's in charge of hiring and firing for ABI, not firing. You don't fire, you redirect.
- Can't tell if he's patronizing me or not right now.
- No, but you know, this is something you've done for years. We know what the labor shortage is, it's brutal. How is baseball and softball handling that when it comes to groundskeepers? I mean, it's gotta be tough.
- It's been hard. My first season I did not have an intern, I did not have a seasonal, it was myself and my full-time assistant-
- What?
- Wow.
- During the days. It was just us doing all the mowing, all the clay packing, all the infield prep, all the BP setup.
- Holy.
- And then we would have a game day crew come in and help us for drags during the game and such. But yeah, I went through a full season with just two people and it was hard. I would not recommend. And then last year I was able to get an intern and I was able to get a seasonal also again learning curve, because my intern was going for a turf degree and was trying to learn. My seasonal, however, had done some groundskeeping at his college but wasn't a professional or didn't have a degree and was just trying to get more experience in it. And I needed help and I was gonna take anybody and everybody. And it took him a minute, I will say the learning curve was a long one for him. But after about halfway through the season, he really found a passion for it and he really showed up on time and loved coming into the ballpark every day and grew in that aspect and now wants to come back again.
- That's great.
- I feel like for some people, once you get into it, you realize how much you love it. They're locked in and sometimes it's not for you and that's okay. It's a hard job, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. It is long, but if you love to be at the ballpark every day, that's your office and you don't wanna sit at a desk, I have a job for you.
- I think that's a formal invitation right there.
- I think we just may have some applicants.
- Scott, here's my two weeks notice. Let's go work on a field.
- [Scott] All right, so you're short-staffed. How did you balance, I mean you talk about long hours, but there are only so many hours in a day.
- Fact, I pushed those hours of the day. I think what helps is having at least the one staff I had was great. My full-time assistant is still my full-time assistant going into our third year. He's phenomenal, as well as having a fleet of equipment that helps a ton. Just because you can't do everything by hand all of the time. So thankfully, when we had soccer we were able to buy a lot more equipment to help with the field conversions. So we doubled our workmen, got a new mower. We do have an ABI and I love my ABI. That multi-tool saves us so much time and being able to, and it's such an easy machine to learn. So having an assistant who's never done field maintenance before, has never even droven a, driven, driven, droven?
- [Scott] Yeah, .
- Worse.
- Yeah, we're there.
- English isn't my first language. He's never even drove a Sand Pro. To be able to teach 'em how to use an ABI, it's so user-friendly. So, and then teaching 'em all the attachments what's for what, what does where. It's a simple process and it really doesn't take any more time than us doing it by hand. So having the full fleet of equipment is a time-saver.
- Makes sense.
- It's an extra person.
- So you talked about the small staff, how equipment helps, let's go back to kinda the training and education of the staff, because I heard you say that some of the staff you've got, you had to do the training yourself. One staff member does have some kind of formal education in turf grass management. How imperative is that for someone who wants to get into the industry? I mean, you again had the shadow, you saw the degree, you questioned whether or not you wanted the degree and then you jumped into it. But what if there's someone who already has a two-year, four-year degree and now they're like, "Wait man, I'm in a dead end job that I don't want. I'm in Flagstaff and I don't wanna be in Flagstaff. What do I do next? This sounds cool, you sold me Leah, this sounds like something I wanna do with my life." Is it too late for me to jump into it? Do I need to go back and get classroom education in order to be successful?
- No, never too late. My full-time assistant when I was, when I had just got my promotion right after, or it's 2021 now, I'm able to hire on an assistant, getting ready for our first season post-COVID. And I was reaching out to everybody. A lot of people weren't leaving, because things were in a weird transition. It was a small world how I found my assistant. And he has a Master's in sports leadership or something. He was a college baseball coach for multiple years. And he had worked on the field slightly that he was at just 'cause they were lower division, division 2 baseball don't have groundskeepers so coaches did everything and he enjoyed it but didn't know a lot about it and was getting ready to leave. And I wanted somebody who wanted to be there every day, who wants to show up early, who doesn't complain, who puts in the work, who enjoys baseball and I can teach you the turf stuff. And I found that in my assistant Max, shout out Max. He's phenomenal, and he has the willingness to learn and I think that's the key piece is he didn't know, but he wasn't opposed to knowing, because there are some people who are like, I just need some extra money and I just am gonna come in and play around on a baseball field and get paid to watch baseball. That's all fun and great, but I need somebody who actually, if I'm not there and I need to spray one day, I need somebody who understands. So slowly and unfortunately, we've had two busy seasons. So it's not always like I can't always explain the why we're doing what we're doing, just can you please get this done and we'll talk about it later. But it's been a process and thankfully he's stuck with me and now he's slowly learning why we use this tine at this time and why we use this fertilizer and why we space this out six weeks and what different herbicides and fungicides do and the different frat codes. And the science behind it is the degree aspect. And he is now looking at getting a two-year degree online from Penn State just because this science behind it intrigues him too.
- Got it.
- As much as the work did. So sometimes it just takes they just need to get their foot in the door and enjoy being there. And then sometimes that spark for the science behind it will ignite.
- Well let's say I'm one of your employees. I love being on the field, I don't have any knowledge. You've got all the knowledge, but obviously you're busy. Are there other resources besides going back to college? I mean, are there online classes? Does the SFMA have classes that I could take? I mean, can I self-educate in some of this?
- Yeah, and he's done a really good job about being a self-motivator and he did take the SFMA has a certification that you can take a couple weeks classes and just kind of get a basic knowledge of the different turf grass types, different weed types that you'll see, different cultural practices, things like that. So he's taken an initiative. Also, they put out those webinars all the time and they have 'em on the website. He has a membership, so he has access to the full catalog of any of the SFMA conference talks. So when we talk about a couple weeks ago we went over micronutrients and why we spray micro-packages and certain times of the year when it's a little bit hotter and stressed out and then there's a webinar link that he can go watch and maybe listen to somebody else explain it, 'cause maybe I'm not explaining it the right way or he wants to learn more about it. So I think because he is a self-starter, that helps a ton. But there is so much out there I think we could do a little bit better about maybe some other certifications that aren't degrees for people. But Beacon puts out a really good skin management course. DuraEdge does a really good job of posting educational videos, ABI posts a lot of educational videos. And I think it's simple things like that, because I never learned skin management in infield, if people are listening and I'm saying skin and they're confused.
- We were tracking, we know what you mean.
- Well, the infield skin, that's not a class in college. So I have a Bachelor's of science, but I couldn't rake dirt to save my life.
- [Matt] Got it.
- That's where the internships come in. So it's like 50% science and the degree part of it for me, and 50% of it was those internships and job experience, because you don't learn to pack clay in the classroom. You don't learn this moisture management.
- Ain't that crazy? I mean-
- You don't learn how to string and paint the lines if you're a soccer football field, those things aren't taught in the classroom, those are taught in real life. So you have to kind of balance both.
- When it sounds like you had a phenomenal mentor in Joe that helped you learn those things, right?
- Yes.
- And so, let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, 'cause you listed off some things that you're looking for when you're looking for a crew, right? And just that it sounds like it's grit, it's resilience, it's work ethic, it's responsibility, personal accountability. Why don't you give us some of the wisdom that you've picked up in this transition to leadership? Because I'm sure there are a number of listeners, viewers right now that maybe they're also new to leading a team. Maybe they have the internships, they've worked on fields and similar to your path, now they find themselves in leadership position and maybe they're a little bit stressed, a little bit nervous. What tips do you have? What have you learned in your first couple of years of leading a team?
- I will be honest, that first year was a struggle. It was like jumping into a wave pool and just getting crashed on every day. It felt like, because I was now not only managing myself, but an assistant and a game, part-time crew and managing up, I think people forget about that aspect of it is a lot harder than almost managing down most of the time for me at least, because I'm trying to communicate to my vice presidents, I'm trying to communicate to the GMs, the managers, the coaches, everybody above me.
- I understand.
- And unfortunately, my age can sometimes be a hindrance to me and they're like, "She's 25, she doesn't know what she's talking about." That's fine, but I have the degree, I do know what I'm talking about. And I hate to throw that around, but like-
- You know how to take care of the field.
- I have the degree and the experience and I've done a really good job to get to this point. And so, explaining that to people, but I had to do a lot of self-reflecting, my first year, 'cause it was just survival that first year. And the second year was okay, let's start treading water instead of just keeping our head above it.
- Well, I appreciate that you're willing to be humble enough and candid enough to admit that.
- Oh no, I went and bought management books after my first year and I am not ashamed. I went out and was just like first time manager books start teaching me how to talk to different personalities, because everybody's different. How do I manage up, how do I manage down? Who needs what from me? And when I did that self-reflection and I really dove into that aspect of it that second year went so much better, because I was able to communicate when things weren't going well. "Tell me why you're struggling? Is it something I'm not doing right? Am I not explaining something right? Do you need a day off? Are you just stressed out? What can I do to get a better you out of you?"
- [Scott] Oh, that's great.
- And that's where I was struggling the first year.
- I love it.
- That's awesome.
- A little bit. First year we just didn't have time unfortunately with two people. Last year with four people, we had a little bit more leeway to really give people some breaks and really dive into how can I get the best out of somebody. And now going into this year, I'm hoping to start swimming instead of just treading water.
- I love it. I gotta know though, what's your list though? You said you went out and looked at some management books and I know that you deeply respect the self-education.
- I do, I deeply respect self... I mean, that's why I-
- Self-learners.
- I jumped up almost outta my seat when she said them, because-
- It's the go-getter, yeah.
- It's the go-getter, I love go-getters.
- So what's your list the, top number 1, number 2, number 3 book? Are there a couple of resources, a couple of books like this one for a new leader, new manager, this is what you recommend?
- There was "Making of a Manager", which was a really good one. Super-simple, just so quick how to manage both up and down. And then, there was a personality traits book and it's-
- [Matt] I'm putting you on the spot. I know, sorry about that.
- No, it's okay. It's like "People Are Idiots" or something. It's was a catchy title.
- Let's just get back to it.
- It was like, "People Are Idiots", and it's like all the different personality types and how to work with each personality type and I had so many notes and highlighters and dog ears in that book of like, oh this is my assistant, this is my president, this is our GM, so that I knew when I was having a reactive moment with them, where that was coming from, because it's not necessarily what happened, what went wrong. As much it is like a trigger from something bad that had happened at a prior job for them and they're taking it out on me unfortunately. You just have to be the calm. I learned that a lot from both my... I worked at North Dakota State all four years in their grounds department and Tom, shout out Tom and Joe who were very calm bosses, I had, they were very calm leaders and when things went wrong, they were probably internally panicking, but they never expressed it to the crew. And so, everything remained like it was okay. And then we got the problem solved, because when you start spiraling and the crew starts spiraling.
- [Matt] Oh yeah.
- It can go downhill so fast.
- Yeah man, I just learned something. I learned that you guys do like to manage. I never heard the term manage up.
- Oh really?
- Yeah. So you manage me. You are always working to maneuver me and direct me.
- You just revealed all of my secrets, just so you know. She also revealed that there's a book, there's a title with idiots and your name is in it, just that's what I heard her say right then.
- Gotcha.
- So Leah, we've covered a lot of ground so far.
- No pun intended.
- Oh my goodness. I did not try to do that.
- But it was funny.
- Set him up as LeBron.
- I know, right?
- So let's zoom out a little bit from some really practical advice to people looking to get into the industry and new leaders in the industry, since you've got some great experience there. Let's look at sports field management as a whole. I mean SFMA wasn't that long ago. It's where you got that prestigious award for your field, you and your team. What are some trends? What's something new in the industry when it comes to being a professional groundskeeper, a sports field manager? What's something you're excited about?
- I mean obviously, the technology piece is a huge one. ABI advancing, autonomous mowers, the grow lights, everything has progressed tenfold in just the 10 years I've been doing this. It's an amazing escalation, words.
- Yeah, that's a good word.
- That we've seen in such a short time. I also think the thing I'm the most excited about is seeing young people jumping into it a lot sooner. I was at the Little League Softball World series in August this year in Greenville, North Carolina. And we had a variety of veterans in the industry and as well as we had two girls from Texas A&M. We had a girl from Virginia Tech and we had a high school student. So we had five generations of female sports field managers
- Right on.
- At an all-female crew for this Little League Softball World series. And I would've killed for that experience in high school.
- Sure.
- I would've killed to be on that crew and this young girl is getting to jump right into it and she got to be a part of everything. She did everything on the field. Same with the college girls. If I could have had that experience in college so young, I mean, I can't say the past, I don't have any regrets, but it would've changed a lot of things and could have progressed things a lot faster. So seeing young people jumping in on opportunities so soon. And say for, there's a lot of like the ACC championship games or the SCC championship games, Super Bowl, there's a lot of young sports field managers involved in those. There's a lot of college kids out on those fields prepping those fields that I never had that experience and a lot of kids I went to college with never had that experience in my generation. Just to see how much we're embracing our youth and really bringing them in so early I think is gonna shoot this industry into the right direction. I feel like we started to regress and I think we're finally back in a progression phase.
- Right on.
- That's great.
- Well, and I love to hear from you that there's so many opportunities and it sounds like it's just making young professionals or students aware of those opportunities. I mean, you put out a comment on someone's just like their field page randomly no specific email address and two days later you get a response, that's remarkable.
- That's incredible.
- Yeah.
- [Matt] So to know that those opportunities are there, that's exciting to think through, How can organizations like the SFMA and other professional organizations help people interested in the sports industries help 'em get connected?
- Yeah, it's a new thing. I am a millennial so I'm a social media person. And I enjoy getting to throw those things out there, because that's what the young people are on. And we're not looking for jobs in the classifieds anymore. It's not happening.
- No more Yellow Pages.
- No Yellow Pages.
- I got Yellow Pages in the mail the other day.
- Oh, did you?
- I didn't know it still existed.
- I did not know that it still existed.
- [Matt] I didn't know what to do with it.
- [Scott] Yeah, I bet not.
- Just keep it for safe keeping and just in case.
- But what is this thing?
- But what we used to do, we used to sit our kids on it in the chairs.
- Historical document.
- Yeah.
- Sorry, anyway.
- So using those tools, it's a tool. I know a lot of older generations are scared to use the social media Turf Twitter is quite the...
- Turf Twitter.
- It's quite the thing. I don't know if you've heard seen been a part of it, but it is quite the little networking and you get to see and talk to all kinds of industry professionals and get tips and tricks and as well as young people get to see job postings and they get to see the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes I guess. So you can get to see and meet your boss before you even work there. So you know like, "Oh she's really fun. I'm gonna go work for her."
- Right there, yeah.
- You can come work for me, I'm super-fun. Or just to see an inside look at what you're applying to as well as getting to see those opportunities. Posting like, "Hey, we're looking for young girls to work Lilly Softball World series this year." "Hey, ACC championship games coming up, we need help." And for those kids to see that on Twitter and have a quick response and then get to go, the avenue has been short-cutted so fast for these kids.
- Got it, yeah.
- Which honestly sounds like a great reason why coaches all over the country... If you are working with students and if you care about the industry growing and you want to connect your students to opportunities, it sounds like a great reason to get to be a part of these organizations or find those social media networks wherever they are to get connected.
- I have a lot of high school and college coaches that follow me on Twitter and I get reached out to all the time about either them needing help taking care of their fields, which I'm always happy to give advice and help, especially those people who don't necessarily have the big resources or have the big budgets to do what they can with what they have, 'cause I have been that person that has to do with what they can, with what they have. So I've been there, but as well as, "I have a student who's interested in this, can she reach out to you?"
- I love it.
- "Can he reach out to you?" And I'm like, "Absolutely."
- That's awesome.
- They were looking more towards football, I know somebody this way. Are you looking at a college level? I know somebody here. We have such a tight group. I know somebody, you're one degree away from knowing somebody who could get you where you wanna go.
- I love it.
- That's the best part of this industry.
- And as long as you're all open, it becomes a very small network.
- [Leah] Oh yeah.
- Even though there's millions of fields, it can actually feel like a small network of people if you're all open and willing to share.
- Oh, yeah, and I think for most part all sports field managers are like that. We are all welcoming and happy to share advice and introduce-
- That's 'cause you're all passionate about it. You can't do this job without passion.
- 100%.
- Yeah, yeah. So the new season dried up on us.
- Yeah.
- Okay, take a deep breath. And what you're looking forward to, what's happening this year that's got you excited? I mean obviously, you're full of passion so much.
- Well, especially after hitting that-
- Yeah, after the big award.
- Such massive success, the big award this year. What's the next year hold?
- Like I mentioned the first year I felt like my head was just above water, sucking water every once in a while and just struggling to get through that first season. Then last year I felt like we were treading water, we were making progress. I wasn't drowning but we weren't getting where I wanted to go, I guess. I feel like this year we're gonna start swimming, we're gonna start making progress, we're gonna start having more days off, we can relax more. We have a routine. Being able to teach a new intern, being able to teach a new seasonal, I'm excited for that part of it. I'm also super-excited, the Real Aces, the team themselves just won the PCL our league.
- Awesome.
- So they're PCL champs. I feel the league, Field of the Year champs.
- Huge deal, so the whole city should be celebrating, that's what I'm hearing.
- Got lots of trophies up in here.
- I have one last question for you. So you've got the award, what was the name of the award?
- It's a Professional Baseball Field of the Year.
- So you won that. What are you gonna do this year to even make you feel better? I mean, you've already gotten to the top.
- I know. I mean, as long as I can keep steady and keep it going, I could go back to back. Who knows, it could be crazy. I just wanna keep giving that safe playable surface that our players love, the cool patterns that our fans love and give a nice experience for my staff just because it is hard long hours and I just want them to enjoy it as much as I do.
- Yeah, yeah, that's great, right on. Well Leah, you are fun. And anybody would be lucky to get to work with you.
- And so fun.
- You're so fun. So if you're looking for an internship, call Leah, sounds like jump on Turf Twitter and find her and and check it out. So thank you so much for being willing to share really though, so much of your story. And again, I appreciate your humility, I appreciate your candor that you're willing to talk about how you're just gonna treading water in the beginning and that's a big deal for, I mean, young professionals to hear that. Yeah, no, it's hard, it's hard work.
- I think people make it look easy again, like you see on social media, like, "Oh, the Chief's field looks amazing," or, "Baltimore looks gorgeous," or, "New York Gigi's field is on point." You see all the beauty of it, but you don't see the hard work behind that and you don't see the struggle that you had to get to these places. I had one of my college best friends texted me when I won that Baseball the Field of the Year Award. And she was like, "If they only knew how many times you cried in my apartment before you got that award." And I was like, "I know." There is a struggle behind that. And it's okay to show that, because it's not always perfect and it takes you a long time to get to that quote unquote, perfect.
- Yeah, and if you're getting into the industry, you need to know what you're getting into.
- Exactly, because if you feel like you have to be perfect 'cause people see the perfect field and someone says, "Well, I could never do that," well then you're less likely to jump in. But if they hear your story and hear you talk about it openly-
- It's a struggle, and it's okay to, I have no shame in showing my struggle. I have on my desk when I was an intern, I was aerating and I kept it from, or I was a seasonal, I kept it. It's a tine that went straight through a sprinkler head, dead center of the sprinkler head. I don't know how I could have gone in it more perfect on that sprinkler head and it sits on my desk, 'cause like a trophy to like everybody messes up. It's okay.
- That's great.
- You still get to where you're supposed to be and you just learn a lesson.
- Yeah, exactly.
- I love it. Well, we're actually gonna get to talk more about those kind of trophies when it comes to the field work. So if you're listening or if you're watching either one, and remember that you can do either one if you want to find us on podcast mediums or find us on YouTube for the videos. This is not our last episode with Leah.
- One more to come this season.
- Yeah.
- That's so fun, you get me twice.
- So we actually get to talk in our next show with Leah about her renovation work. Because like you said, a soccer team is now using your field as well, right? And that's fairly recent, the past couple of years. And so, when it comes to renovating a field for multiple purposes and still somehow getting a trophy in the midst of it, Leah's gonna have a lot of great advice for us. And that'll be next time, so see you then.
