Ground Etc.
ABI presents Ground Etc, where we talk all things turf care and ground prep. This podcast is for grounds keepers, landscape contractors, and anyone interested in working in the dirt. From the right equipment, to the right crew, to the strategies needed to run a successful business. We talk to experts of the industry about the ground, the work, et cetera!
Ground Etc.
How to be Successful in Hiring, Retention & Finances – with Pete Denny
If you're a crew leader or landscaping business owner, you won’t want to miss Pete’s top tier insights on creating high quality work for your customers and a high quality environment for your employees.
Check out more of Ground Etc. on https://www.forcebyabi.com/ground-etc
- Hi everyone. I'm Matt Metzger and you're listening to "Ground, etc". This season we are talking all things soil prep and landscape contracting, from the right equipment to the right crew to the business strategies you need to run a successful landscaping company. We talk to industry experts about the ground, about the work, et cetera. And you can tell here once again, we get to hang out with Mr. Pete Denny down here in Reidsville, North Carolina, outside of Reidsville, North Carolina.
- Yep.
- And a beautiful day sitting here in your backyard. Appreciate the hospitality. Pete, thanks for taking a break with us this morning.
- You are welcome.
- You are normally very much on a job site by now.
- I'm pretty busy dude, for the most part, but it's good to slow down and chill and-
- Yeah.
- I just, I like hanging out with you guys.
- Well, we, we appreciate it. We appreciate it. Well, and wanna talk a little bit today, I know last time we sat down together, we were talking your history, we were talking how you got into this. We were talking about the variety of businesses you're in. Some advice for people trying to grow their businesses and spread out into different areas. This time around, why don't we talk a little bit about you as a leader in your company, you as a manager, and taking care of a crew, because it's, it's not just you at this point, it started just you.
- Correct.
- And if you missed that story, make sure to go back and pick up that episode that this was back when you were hopefully going to be married. But then, but then-
- Yeah.
- But they needed to make sure to be able to provide for you.
- Yeah. Jobless 30 days before marriage isn't a real-
- Yeah.
- Fun thing.
- Well, and this whole thing started out as a solo gig, but now is very much not a solo gig. How many people are you working with on a day-to-day basis at this point?
- So in our maintenance division, I have six employees. Okay. And that's, we run two man crews on that. And then on the spray side, I have two crews that run.
- Yeah.
- And then in the office we have one, two, three, four in the office warehouse, and then myself and my wife.
- Wow. So you've got quite a few crews and not just, not just all doing the same work. You've got all of these different people doing all this different work in different places.
- There's a lot of moving parts.
- There's a lot of moving parts.
- Yeah.
- Well, and I wanna talk about that specifically because a lot of the feedback we get from people in the industry is that, you know, they find somebody, first of all, it's hard to find somebody and then once they find somebody they work out, work hard for a little bit. But then it's just so hard to keep people. But you were telling us you've got people working with you for a pretty long time.
- Yeah.
- What are some of the tenures you've got of the people you've working with?
- I think Robert's been with me for 18 years, maybe.
- Wow.
- And Jacob maybe around 14 years. And then a couple others. 10 years or better.
- Good grief. So give us some of the stories. How did you, how did you meet some of these guys that you've been working with for so long?
- So the, my philosophy on hiring is probably a little different than traditional. I tend to stay inside my group.
- Yeah.
- And go to my buddies.
- Yeah. The first employee I ever had, he was actually one of my best friends. And I grew up with him since a little kid. Went to school with him and he was talking about getting out of public work. And I was like, well man, I could really need some help. 'Cause I was at the point where I was doing everything myself because it was just me and I had enough income to support another guy. And it just worked out great.
- Yeah.
- And then I, as we continued, he came on board. I got, I was able to get more business, make more income, and then I needed another guy. And he was the first guy I went to. It's like Brandon, you know anybody that needs a job. Yeah, I know one of my buddies that's been wanting to get outta public work and that was Robert.
- Yeah.
- And then Robert's been with us ever since. And so anytime I need to hire somebody, I start with my employees. Do you have a buddy? And fortunately, that has worked for us for 20 years.
- Well, that seems smart because nobody wants to recommend somebody that can't keep up with them. Right? You're not gonna recommend to work with somebody who's gonna -
- Believe me, we've been down that road. Oh yeah. This guy, he's great. He'll, he'll do wonderful. And he works for two days and he's, I can't handle it. Yeah. So, you know, so you get, you get some bad with the good. But in my circumstance the good has been a lot more prevalent for sure.
- Well, why don't you talk us through that, that initial jump, because I know many, many guys that, you know, start out in the business, they run the solo job, they're starting to build up a revenue, they're starting to build up. But with the money comes the stress. Right? Because like you were talking about last time, you're just working your tail off. It seems like one of the scariest points in business growth is that jump from solo to one other person. Am I making enough? Can I support it? How do I know? What if the growth doesn't come? So why don't you talk us through that specifically. What was it like getting to the point where you needed somebody else? How did you know, like what, what went into that?
- So one, you have to know how to do math, basic math.
- Yeah.
- I know that sounds simple.
- No.
- And it's like elementary, but you have to know how to do math. Yeah.
- If you are going to pay someone and they're going to be dependent on you for a paycheck, you have to know that that money's gonna be coming in. And that comes from the way you price jobs, the way you bid jobs, of course, the quality so you retain the customer.
- Yeah.
- And you have to have enough to be able to pay them. And again, I know that sounds simple, but it is that simple. And if I'm making $10 and I got $11 going out, something ain't gonna work, you know?
- What, give us the, and you're right, it sounds simple, but it's the basic foundation. Can you, can you flesh that out a little bit for us though? What are some specific numbers you were looking at? Were you comparing, you know, revenue to, you know, payroll? How much the guy wanted, like how much you're taking away? Like were there some specific numbers you were looking at?
- Yeah, sure. You know, at that time I wasn't doing a lot of contract work.
- Okay.
- Like 12 month contract work. So I would have to make sure we made enough money during the growing season.
- Yeah.
- And I could be frugal and save that money and put it back to be able to cover a payroll-
- Got it.
- During the slower times of the year.
- Yeah.
- The biggest thing it helped us do that was equipment. Believe it or not. 'Cause we had some kinda yucky mowers and by that time I bought my first, I think it was a Exmark Laser-Z Zero Turn Mower.
- Yeah.
- And you talking about being able to mow, you could, I could literally mow three times the yards in a day. So I became considerably more efficient because of the equipment. And so I could make more money to be able to have, to be able to ensure that I could, I could pay that employee.
- Well and we're, I want to come back to that and how the kind of the connection between people size, crew size, the right people, and then how the equipment and quality equipment goes hand in hand with that.
- So just like when I bought that mower from a maintenance side, it made them more efficient when I got my ABI Force. That made me more efficient because I do all the ball field work myself. People see the videos and all that. And they think maybe behind the scene there's four or five guys working-
- I'm always looking for that. I'm always looking for-
- There's nobody there, extra guys on hand rakes or somebody else in,
- You know-
- No.
- The tractor or something.
- I don't, I don't need all that because I have a Force. That thing is so nimble, so efficient. And so it just does any, anything I want to do. And why would I have a guy sitting there doing nothing paying him? 'Cause I mean, if I'm being honest, I'm gonna be on my Force.
- Yeah.
- That's it. And I just enjoy that type of work so much. So I'm literally doing what a crew of three or four people might be doing elsewhere. I'm doing it all by myself.
- Yeah.
- And I'm not killing myself doing it either.
- Yeah. Well it sounds like that's something that, I mean, it allows you, by having that, by having the Force and having that much efficiency in this side of the business, there's other side of the business then like you can continue to grow that as well-
- Yeah.
- Because you've got the extra resources going the different directions.
- Absolutely. Well, and hearing you talk about efficiency for the Force in the ball field, I mean, that reminds me of the, that new aerator attachment under, under that Z-23. Right? The Sabre unit is the unit that has that on there. You had a chance to test that out here in your own yard, right? Just right behind us.
- Yep. What'd you think of that? That mid-mount? Anytime you can get an AERA-vator in your hands
- Yeah.
- Is a good day. I've got several different AERA-vators and the one on the bottom of the Force was absolutely fantastic.
- Yeah.
- I think my favorite thing about it was you could make turns and go around the curvature of the beds.
- Yeah.
- And it didn't hold up. It didn't, didn't hinder the machine in any way.
- Yeah.
- Where with most of the fixed AERA-vator head units, you have to pick the head unit up.
- Yep.
- Turn around, drop it back down. With a Force, you just keep getting it.
- So you're gonna let your guys use that if they don't get to use on the ball field?
- No. Sorry. Some things are off limits.
- Well, let's talk about your team. I wanna go back to, you know, that first hire, 'cause I think that's still the most nerve wracking for so many business owners is going from a solo gig to a second person working with him. Talk us through what were some, what were some stress points? I know it sounds like there's somebody you knew, it was a buddy of yours, somebody you've probably known for a while and already trusted. But what was it like having somebody working alongside you? Any hurdles you had to overcome? Any potholes you hit along that first couple of weeks and months?
- Well, when you get to that point, you start managing a person, you're not managing turf anymore.
- Yeah.
- Of course, I still manage turf, obviously. But you have to manage the person so they can manage the turf the way you want it managed.
- Yeah.
- Does that make sense? And that's definitely a challenge for me, 'cause I'm a very controlling kind of guy. I like hands on. You know, I like to, it is my baby. You know, so I like to kind of be in charge and my wife give me a really hard time because when I let those guys go out the first week by their self, I was a nervous wreck.
- Really?
- Yeah. I was a wreck man. Not that I didn't trust them, it's just that I wasn't there 'cause I wanted my hands to touch the property.
- Yeah.
- And so you have to build up a level of trust, especially when you're a hyper peculiar guy. If you're not quite as peculiar, it ain't a big deal. But I'm very peculiar about my work and my accounts and everybody may not have that trait, you know? And so you have to teach them how to be peculiar. How to notice things that are outta place and, you know, we're all flawed humans and you know, maybe they're not just gonna be that way every single time they go out where I would be. So it takes a level of patience on your part and a level of grace. You have to realize that maybe they're tired today and they're not gonna do the job 100% perfect today. And you have to be able to accept that and move on.
- Well give us some of those training stories. 'cause I think that's one thing that, I mean, I think most business owners want their people to succeed because I know if their people win, they win. But there is a level of training involved, right? And even if it's somebody you know, and somebody you've already got some trust with, there's still things that need to be trained. Whether it's, maybe it's the grit and the you know, the attention to detail. Or maybe it's a just a technical training. They need to learn how to do something. Talk us through some of the tactics that have been really successful for you in training people that are new to your crew or new to the work.
- Yeah. I'm a big proponent of keeping things as simple as possible.
- Okay.
- From a teaching standpoint. And I feel like I've been blessed with that ability to be able to teach in a simple way. I don't have to make it nerdy. And so, you know, if we're gonna mow the grass a certain way or do things a certain way in the yard, I just have a good knack of breaking that down to the simplest form. I'm a system guy. Yeah. I love, when my guys roll up to a property things are done in a certain order, a certain way every, single time.
- Yeah.
- And I think that makes a huge difference. But yeah, those systems, you know, I think that's a good foundation to start is you have to go out yourself and figure out, alright, do I want to edge the property first? Do I want to mow first? Do I want to take care of the weeds and the beds first?
- Yeah.
- What if I got two guys? What does this guy do while the other guy's doing something else and everything's systematic and we got a pretty strong system. I mean, my guys can roll up to a property and get it knocked out in a matter of no time. And the quality is, is spot on now. Of course they're human.
- Sure.
- And every now and then I'll, Hey, y'all didn't get these weeds out. I got a email.
- Yeah.
- Run back over there and knock it out for me.
- Yeah.
- And so, you know, it is not a fail-safe thing. But when you, when you give somebody instruction and systematically get them to do something a certain way. I think that alone makes it so much easier.
- Well, and I love that you're talking systems, Pete, because I think it's so easy for people who, again, you started the company, you started the work, and so you knew it forward and backward. You wouldn't have to think two seconds about rolling up exactly what you're gonna do, but transferring that to somebody else, you gotta get that documented. I mean, did you go as, did you, how'd you do that? Is it checklist, is it just repetition? You had the person follow you around? I mean, how did you, how did you get to the point where you felt a 100% confident you know, they know this system, they know my system, they're gonna do it how I would do it.
- Oh, I'd be out there watching them.
- Yeah.
- We're not watching them. I'm not that kind of a boss, but be out there with them.
- Yeah.
- And pointing and shooting. Say you do that first. Do this first. I even took it the point to where I made sheets and put in all the trucks. And literally it was get outta the truck. Step one, step two, grab weed eater, step two, step three, whatever it is. While, while crew leader grabs mower and mows, helper does this and just put it all right down the sheet that way in case they, I didn't remember that step. You can't say that, 'cause you got a sheet in your truck, you can look at it.
- Yeah. Well, and so what would you say? Okay, because I love that kind of documentation and step by step because again, it's not about micromanaging, it's about you having a lock tight. If you do this, you will be successful.
- It's about making it easy.
- Right? Yeah, simplifying. So what would you say to, you know, a business owner right now who's got a career guys, and he says, ah man Pete, that just, it seems like it's too detailed. It seems like it's too much. It seems like I shouldn't have to go to that effort. How would you respond to that to say how helpful it is?
- Why wouldn't you go to that effort?
- It's your company.
- And don't you want your company to be efficient and profitable and successful?
- And if you know the-
- Then if you're not gonna put the effort in, maybe you don't need to be running the company. Does that make sense?
- Yes. Well, and and to get your brain into someone else's, it takes some kind of transfer. Right? And if it's a checklist, it's a checklist.
- Yeah. Yeah. Because everybody don't roll up to a yard and view it the same way.
- Yeah.
- They can't, some people can't see the order of operation naturally. So you have to feed that to 'em and teach it to 'em.
- Well I think that's a good insight too, recognizing that just because you can't, you can't think that everybody thinks the way you think. Exactly. And so you see it a certain way. And so getting the way you see it into somebody else's mind, like that takes work.
- It takes time.
- And you can't expect them to see it the way you see it. But if you're writing their paycheck, you can expect them to do it the way you want it done.
- Yeah, yeah.
- If I were receiving the paycheck and my boss said, you need to do step A, B, C, D. I'm gonna do step A, B, C, D. That's just the way I'm gonna do it. 'Cause that's the way he, he's providing the income. So I'm gonna honor that.
- So let's talk the next step then the next layer. So you've crossed the big scary step of bringing one person on. So you multiplied yourself out from there. You start to add as the number grows and you pick up efficiency. But you referenced there that you've got crew leaders. So what is it like then to not only pass off, hey, do the work the way I do it, but now you've got, you've got other kind of management or leadership structure in there. So what was that jump like? How did you, how did you know you were to the point that you needed another shot caller with you on your team?
- Yeah, so to back up a little bit, going from one employee to two employees was more scary for me than going from myself to one employee.
- Really?
- Yeah. At that time things were a little bit tight, money-wise. And, you know, I felt like we could do it. The math said we could it, but it was just tight. And we got the, the, my second employee hired and the first two paychecks he was supposed to get, Tammy and I had to do without our paycheck. 'Cause we had not received a check coming in from a customer in time.
- Wow.
- And so it was like, he's worked all week. I'm going pay him. I don't care.
- Yeah.
- We will take the hit and we would take the struggle and we, me and you would do without babe, for a week or two.
- Wow.
- And that's what we did. And fortunately we had a little money saved up at the time. We could do that. But that, that's just the sacrifice sometimes you have to make too. I'm not saying everybody should go out and do that, but if, if you're in a pinch, sometimes you have to make a sacrifice because this dude's working for you and he's expecting a paycheck.
- Well, and I love that on two-folds Pete, not only the, the integrity you've got to put somebody, you put put somebody relying on you for their paycheck. You put their needs above your own. But also there's a piece of practical wisdom there that I wanna make sure that people caught. You have enough saved up that if you had to take the hit you could.
- Exactly.
- And that's not just good wisdom, that's practical knowledge.
- Yep.
- Yeah. A lot of folks look at self-employment and business owners, especially with me, they look at the video, see all this crazy equipment all and they think, well he's loaded. He can just buy anything and everything he wants. That's not the case. You have to be wise with your money. Okay, I don't really talk about that on videos and stuff of how to say even and how to be frugal. But you have to just do without sometimes. No matter how bad I want that new whatever.
- No, what, I want this story. What's, what's something that, because you knew that you were trying to make wise financial choices. Give us the thing that, like I really wanted that thing at that time, but I knew it just wasn't a wise financial decision
- When I bought my shop.
- Yeah.
- My property. I had a choice to, to buy the property or I could go out and buy a new work truck and I could keep renting. And at that point in time, it just was not wise to go out and buy that new work truck. I kept driving old beater and kept getting the job done. And I went and bought, we bought the property that we're at now. And so, you know.
- You're, you're striking close to the heart. I mean, for, for a lot of guys that shiny new truck, that's the-
- Oh yeah.
- That's the appeal.
- Oh yeah. I've been, I've been wanting that for a long time. Yes. And outta the blue, the property came available just outta nowhere. And it is a split second decision you gotta make, do I wanna do what's best for Pete and do I wanna ride in that nice new truck or do I want to do what's best for my employees and my business and my future and my family? And you know, I'm, obviously I made the right call on that one.
- Well it seems like a classic example of short-term thinking versus long-term. You know, that that nice shiny new truck is only nice and shiny for a while. It's gonna get dirty. It's gonna get dirty.
- It's still a work truck.
- That's right. Yeah. That's right. Well, so go back then to like, finish that story out on how scary it was for the, that second person that you hired on. It sounds like the first two weeks, that was a bit of a pain point. How did that go then? When did you start to feel more peace, feel better about that second person in the crew?
- Well, it was, it was just the same with the first guy, once we got going is you have more manpower. You're able to do more work, take on more jobs, make more money. And it just kind of got more comfortable and comfortable as we went.
- Yeah.
- And you know, I started 20 years ago and you know, in our area, the landscaping, lawn care craze hadn't hit like full blown like it is now. Everybody has a mower in a trailer now. And so we picked up a lot of accounts at a very quick pace. And so that allowed us to keep growing and growing, adding on more employees. And so it kind of got more comfortable and more comfortable and more comfortable. Something I've learned to do, and I do this today, is the way I manage my bank accounts. I have about 11 different bank accounts.
- The maintenance pays maintenance, the spray pays spray, the ball fields, pay Pete, the online pays, you know, my employees in the office and warehouse. And I think that's a big deal versus just throwing everything in a big pot. I like to micromanage finances like that.
- Yeah.
- It keeps, helps me keep things organized and compartmentalized so that I'm not robbing Peter to pay Paul.
- That makes a lot of sense, Pete. Well, and it sounds like you're taking what was at first a small business. You're not so small anymore, but you treated a small business with kind of a big corporate sophisticated mentality when it comes to how the money needs to be handled.
- I think that's the most, I think that's the most important financial decision I ever made in my company was to separate out funds, so that, you know, the spray side of the business buys the fertilizer that the spray guys apply.
- Yeah.
- You know what I'm saying?
- Yep.
- The gas money that goes into the lawnmowers comes out of the maintenance side of the business because they use the lawnmowers and that that's just made it and it's made it easier on me.
- Sure.
- Yeah, it's a little bit trouble to go through the checks and, well this one's a maintenance, put it in this pile, this one's a spray, put it in this pile, this one's that, put it over here. But when you get a system down for that, it becomes easier to do that part. Yeah. But just having all that stuff organized, it makes it things way easier on me.
- What did you learn that, I mean, when it comes to the kinda the business, finance side of things, was there an author, a book a, a mentor? Who did you, who did you learn this stuff from?
- 20 years ago, my wife and I had some very severe debt and we were drowning pretty much. And at church we took a course called Financial Peace.
- Yeah, Dave Ramsey stuff.
- With Dave Ramsey.
- Yeah.
- Literally changed our life and we did the snowball thing. Got outta debt, been outta debt ever since.
- Good for you.
- And just that philosophy of managing your money in a, especially a biblical way and being diligent with your money, honoring God with your money and being just overall smart with it. You know, I got a lot of money coming in, I ain't gonna lie. Yeah. I mean I do. I've been blessed, but I don't just go crazy with it. Like, you know, some people might think you would, so you just have to have some wisdom and maturity to be able to, to be able to manage that kind of money. I've always taught my kids that too. That if you make 10, you cannot spend 11. The math don't, I know that's, it sounds elementary dude and super simple, but it's just basic math. If you make 10 don't spend 11, period.
- That's the hardest thing. Right?
- It's extremely difficult.
- Keep the ego in check because you look around and you say, well he has that and she has this and I want that.
- Yeah.
- But reining that in, it's extremely difficult to do, but you gotta be disciplined to do that stuff.
- Well, talk us through, so the, you mentioned, you know, the more, the more your team grew, you just could do more. Right? Capacity grew.
- Did you, how did you approach kind of the demand? Did you ever have like a wait list that you and you and your one guy couldn't get to everything and that's how you knew to grab a second person? Or you just grabbed a second person and you trusted that it was gonna blow up once you had a second person?
- When, when I got to the point to where it was 9:30 and 10 o'clock at night and I was still on the lawnmower-
- Got it.
- With a light system I had rigged up and put across the front of the mower so that I could see at night to mow, that's when I knew.
- So you had committed to so many lawns and you know, to fulfill those commitments you had to have an extra person.
- Or keep working till midnight. Pick one.
- Which we talked about in the last episode that was-
- Exactly.
- That has a cost.
- Yeah. So I've been through that twice. Physically, boots on the ground. Working way too many hours. And you know, when you sit down and look to math, you got all this money coming in and you're like, gosh, I can actually afford to pay someone and be consistent paying them and get the work done and get home by four o'clock.
- Well, and we've talked then about, you know, the skillset of the technical knowledge of how to care for a lawn and how to, how to make a landscape beautiful. We've talked about, you know, the skill set of training other people to think the way you think and be in particular. But then, I mean management is its own skillset. And so then talk me through how did you, that pivot then of having a, having a crew leader, having somebody who's not just doing the work, but they also are helping other people get the work done.
- Yeah, I think that's by, based on how you grow, you know, at certain point, like you said, you can't do it all yourself and you need a, you need another Pete to run things. So I would pick people like Robert and Jeremy and Josh that I felt had company's best interests at heart. They actually, they want the company to succeed. They want us to do good and they, they follow the systems that I put in place and that's kind of how I, you know, go about picking who's gonna be a crew leader and who's not. You know, it's a maturity level there, you know and-
- Gimme some specifics on that. So let's say like I'm on the job site or I've got multiple job sites. I'm watching my guys work. I've got two guys here, three guys here, two guys here. And I like what you said there that you're looking for people who, they want the company to win. They're not just clocking in, clocking out. They're not just, you know, living for the dollar, but they're thinking about the bigger picture. What am I seeing to tell that someone's got that quality?
- Well, I'm looking for a leader, someone who's not gonna be standing around pointing fingers saying, yeah, well you need to do that that way, or do this this way. I'll be over here at the truck. And I'll check on you in a minute. I want somebody who's gonna jump in there and get their hands dirty and physically show how to do something.
- Yeah.
- You can talk me to death all day, but if you don't show me that you know how to do it with your hands, I'm probably not gonna believe you. And so that, that's been a big thing with me choosing crew leaders is you need to be willing to get in there with your crew, with your helper. And get the job done with them.
- Got it. Well, I love that highlight. And so for anybody listening right now that maybe you don't own the company, maybe you're working in landscaping and you're thinking, Hey, someday I wanna be a leader, or someday I wanna own my own company. I mean, Pete nailed it, the idea that there is no standing around-
- Not in this profession.
- If that list is all checked off and you're waiting to be done, then grab a broom, grab the blower and clean up something.
- It's, it's real easy to pick up on guys who are the guy, the go-getter mentality.
- Yeah.
- You know, when you got a group of guys standing around at the end of the day waiting to go home, but you got this one guy over here who just grabs the broom and starts sweeping the shop floor. Just something that simple. Just to keep things cleaned up. You know, you pick up on that kind of stuff and that, that kind of helps you figure out, well, he'd probably make a pretty good crew leader.
- So now that's easier to see once they're already on the team and once you're already working with them and you've got all day long that you can keep eyes on them. How do you, then let's switch over. How can you tell in kind of the hiring process now I hear you that you, you primarily went to the, went to your team first and said, hey, do you know a guy, are you willing to vouch for a guy? But talk to us the hiring process as a business owner. How do you look at somebody and talk to somebody and know I think they'd be a good fit?
- You can't. I mean, you can't do that. And I'm pretty good at reading the person. Yeah, I can talk with someone for 10, 15 minutes and I can pretty much read you pretty good. But it's hard to see through a lie. And we've been through that a hundred times. I can do this, I can do that, I can do this and then get 'em in the field and you can't do this and you can't do that. So sometimes it's a risk you take, you know, it's just a judgmental thing on you that you have to kind of figure out what someone's about simply by talking to you. And of course you get references and all that kind of thing. And I've had that happen a hundred times is yeah, I can do this, that, and this and then call the reference and nah, you don't want to hire that guy. He's nothing what he says.
- Wow.
- So, you know, you, we wanna make sure you, we have actual, you know, formal forms, like a new hire sheet where they, we get references and all that kind of thing and we call 'em and check on 'em. I mean that's the best thing you can do is call a previous employer.
- I like that.
- And figure out, you know, well, is the guy actually doing did what he said he did, you know?
- Well I like that as a next level step because sure, there are a lot of people listening that they've got, you know, an application process or an interview process, but actually calling references, that's not something that a lot of people take the time for. It takes a lot of time. You call somebody leave a voicemail, they don't get back to you for a couple days.
- Exactly.
- You're in a hurry for a hire.
- Exactly. But I hear you say that that's a really imperative part of the process.
- Yeah, but that step saves you a ton of time in the long run.
- Got it.
- A lot of time.
- I like that.
- Yeah. 'Cause if you can get a, especially if it's a reference you're familiar with. You know, like another lawn care company and you might know them through the way or whatever and they say, yeah, that guy is, he's just not cut out for it. You know, sometimes you can, you know, limit the headache moving forward.
- Well, let's close the loop then, 'cause I heard you there say hate sometimes you don't know, sometimes you end up with somebody in your crew that they're not working out. So I'm sure there are people listening that, you know, they've got the business, they've got the crew. Some guys are doing great and killing it. But let's say they hired somebody and this person's just not working. Not, people don't typically like confrontation. Having that hard conversation of, hey, this isn't working. That's tough for people to do. And sometimes that takes a long time to ask someone to leave when they shouldn't be there. How do you handle that? How do you handle those conversations?
- Those are very tough for me. Because I got a pretty soft talk when it comes to people. And I like to show compassion and grace toward people, 'cause I know that people have trouble. And whenever we do have to go through something like that, I always bring in another employee with me.
- Got it.
- Strictly for witness reasons. And I typically give people way more chances than they probably deserve it. And I'm flipping that around on me. If I were the employee and I screwed up 10 times, I would probably be fired. Whereas I'm going to try and help the employee get through that hurdle or over that hurdle and say, try to give 'em more opportunity, you know, to do the right thing at work and so then keep their job. 'Cause I mean, I don't want 'em to lose their job. I don't want 'em to have to go get another job. I mean, you know, unless they just want to. So that, that's, that's extremely hard for me to do. And my wife would tell you the same thing. I just do not like sitting down with anybody and having that conversation and have to tell 'em you don't have a job anymore.
- Yeah, and it seems like that that tactic of compassion and training and trying to get people back on the right track, I mean, it seems to be really successful for you. I mean, the fact that you've got the people working for you as long as they have and your business continues to grow.
- Well, like I said, they're, they're my friends before they're my employees. And, you know, we share birthday parties together and stuff like that with kids and all kind of things. And I've really taken my role as a business owner to be able to help people. My employees specifically, meaning if they need some money to go do this, if they need, if they're a refrigerator conked out and they can't buy one, I go buy 'em a refrigerator. One guy needed new tires on his truck, he got a ticket and got pulled, didn't have any money. I went and bought him new tires and put 'em on his truck. So it's, it's more, it's about being in a position to be able to help people get through life and navigate life. And the bonus is you get to work in nice, pretty green grass and get a paycheck to do it. You know what I mean?
- It's not bad work.
- Yeah. So you know, I take that part very, very seriously as being a leader in a helpful kind of way to the person, not as an employer.
- Yeah, well, and I love that paradigm as a successful business owner. It's not just how many contracts, how many lawns, how many jobs, how big a revenue can I generate? But you're thinking about the lives that you've got.
- Yeah.
- It's how many families can I help care for?
- Not only am I growing turf, I'm growing a person. You know, helping a, helping someone that may, you never know that person, that employee may not even know what it had to be a dad, to have a dad. You just don't know that kind of thing. You don't know if what this person's going through at home. So I wanna be the light at the end of the tunnel for 'em. You know what I mean? And so anytime I can do anything for an employee, that doesn't mean I roll over. I'm not a softie, well, you can't, I'm not a softie, I keep my guys in line.
- Sure.
- But when it, there's a separation there. When they need help, actual help with life, I'm the first person they need to come to. 'Cause I'm gonna be the first one to help 'em.
- Yeah. I love that. All right, so I know you've, you're talking a lot about how to care for, care for your guys, they're friends first, not employees first. How like you see 'em as family. You're willing to jump in the, how do you get there? 'Cause I know a lot of what we hear feedback from, from guys working in the industry and having these businesses and crews, everyone's saying the same thing. That retention is such a problem that you train somebody up and then they don't work out or they go somewhere else or, you know, it's in this industry, like you said, there's just so many, there's so many crews in towns these days. Well, I can go over here and I can make 50 cents more. I can go over here and make a dollar more. And how do you, how do you retain your guys? How do you, what do you think that you're doing that's keeping people around?
- Well, number one is I think you had to build a relationship with the person. And they need to understand that, well, Pete's not perfect either. Pete might mess up and the employee might need to show me a little bit of grace every now and then and understand that that could happen going forward.
- You're trying to tell me bosses aren't perfect.
- No, they're not. They're not. Believe me, I know one right here that's not perfect. You definitely have to take care of your employees. And that starts with, I believe how you, you price your work out-
- Really?
- How much you charge. Because you can't go mow a yard for 20 bucks and then turn around and expect to offer benefits and a high level of pay and vacation time and holiday time, paid, sick time. You can't do all that charging 20 bucks to more yard.
- Okay, so I love this connection here because I know that you got business owners who are trying to be, trying to be the affordable one.
- Right.
- Trying to, maybe they're, they're new to the industry and they're trying to undercut up the guys and say, well, I can do the job cheaper. But then you're directly connecting the price of your service, the cost of your service too. Your ability to take care of people and grow a company.
- It goes back to basic math. It's just basic math one plus one equals two. You know what I mean? You have, and I'll be the first one to tell you, I am not the cheapest company on the block, but I have employees that are happy and do really good work and have been here for a long time. And my customer retention rate is through the roof because they don't see a different dude in the yard every week. They see the same guy there, at the same time, every single week doing the same repetitive motions and leaving their property looking good. And they pay us a premium to do that. And so I'm able to offer paid time off, paid holidays off-
- Wow.
- A 401k to my guys, a competitive wage of pay.
- Yeah.
- And on top of that, I'm able to bless them and give when the times there that they need me to help out.
- I love that. And so a lot of things you just listed off, I've heard from guys say, I, hey, this is, this is the work that it is. I'm, you're not gonna find benefits here. You're not gonna find retirement here-
- That's a load of crap. I don't go for that. Because if, because if you do ultra high quality work, people will pay for that. I'm that guy. I will pay a premium price to get something done right the first time and that it lasts. I'm just, I'm wired like that. I don't mind spending the money on quality. But what does tick me off is when I pay something and I don't get what I paid for, that's when you gonna have a problem with me. And so I look at that through the customer eyes when my guys go out, they're paying for a premium service, you better give them a premium service.
- Well, and that's a great reflection point. So if you've got anybody listening that they're thinking, Hey, I've got, I've got a retention problem, I can't do good work because I can't keep my guys, well maybe you need to flip that problem around.
- Right.
- Well, are are you doing good enough work-
- Exactly.
- That you can charge enough that you can take care of your people.
- Yeah, and if you can't justify charging a certain amount of money, then you know, maybe the whole employee route isn't for you.
- Yeah.
- Because in order for you to have employees and keep them happy and retain them, they gotta live a life too. You know what I, they got house payment, they got car payment, they got kids they gotta feed. So they have to make that income to be able to do that.
- Well, and this is some hard truth. I mean, you're really asking people to look in the mirror and see, because it's so easy to say that, you know, the retention problem is, you know, the young generation of workers or the culture these days or all this other stuff going on. And they wanna blame a lot of things for why I can't keep a crew. But maybe you should start with the mirror first.
- So sometimes you need to look in the mirror.
- Yeah.
- You know what I mean?
- Am I, am I the kind of leader I need to be? Am I treating people with respect and relationship? Am I like, are we doing good work?
- And are you charging enough?
- Yeah.
- Are you selling yourself short?
- Yeah.
- You know what I mean? If I'm charging $40 to do this job, should I be charging 80? You know what I mean?
- Yeah.
- Because my quality justifies it's worth 80 bucks.
- Have you, and I imagine over the years that you've raised your prices gradually.
- Oh yeah.
- I mean that's just part of doing business. I know this is a bit of a side note here, but have you ever gotten any, are there any pushback stories of going to a customer and say, hey, it's gonna be a price increase, or, hey, next year it's gonna be a little bit more?
- Every once in a blue moon.
- Yeah?
- We'll get somebody, but typically our price increases go up as things increase in price to us.
- Got it.
- When our fertilizers, 'cause you know, we buy fertilizer by the tractor trailer load.
- Yeah.
- So it's not like it goes up two bucks a bag and we're buying five bags, we're buying a thousand bags at a time. So that's a big deal.
- Yeah.
- For us. And that's something we can't absorb. Matter of fact, about three years ago we kind of did a flip in the way we do our aerating and over seeding service. We used to include it in our contract price. Now the customer pays separate for it. That's because they had a big drought out in Oregon where all the seed comes from. And I had all these set contracts, but I ended up spending about 40 grand, 40 grand-
- Ooh.
- Over my budget on grass seed. And I said, I'll never do that again. So now we kind of flip that to where if we use two bags on the yard, the customer pays us at that time for the two bags.
- Got it.
- Versus including that into a, you know, a set fixed price for 'em. So, you know, stuff like that, you have to adjust on the fly. And you have to understand that some people ain't going to like that. Well, I don't like adjusting your price. I don't like doing that as much as you, you know, like having to pay more. So it's a two-way thing here, but you just have to understand that you might lose a few customers here and there. But when you look at, you know, the, the landscape of the country and when things go up in price across the board, people understand that. People know you gotta, you gotta charge a little bit more to stay in business, you know?
- Yeah, so, Pete, we've talked through some of the nitty gritty, right? Some of the, the hiring and some of the hard conversations and some of the, even the details of finance. What do you enjoy? I mean, of all, all the work that needs to get done as a business owner, as as a leader of all this crew, what do you, what do you like about managing a crew and managing a company that's grown to the size that this has grown?
- Getting to see people grow?
- Yeah.
- Personally, you know, and mature personally, I got one, I'm not gonna name his name, but I got one dude that works for me now. And when he started, I just was not sure about him. Very just, I didn't think he was gonna work out. But I've worked with him over the past two or three years and I've watched him mature and become an incredible employee. Matter of fact, I almost called him one of my best employees.
- Wow.
- And to see that growth in him just as a person change, has nothing to do with his work quality. Just as a person that, that, I mean that, what more can you ask for? Well, and what a, this guy is now, you know, I see him as quotes a better person or more responsible person, a more mature person. And I mean, I get a kick outta that.
- Yeah. Well, and what a great turnaround story too, going from someone that you didn't think was gonna work and now one of your best.
- Yeah, no, I'm a 100% about that. And obviously you can't take out, you can't leave out the physical part of my job. Meaning when I come into a bare dirt renovation and go back a month later and this customer has a perfectly lush green stand of turf.
- Yeah.
- Oh, that just, that does it for me.
- That makes me think.
- Yeah. That part has always gotten to me. In a very serious way to see the physical result of a change that you did to someone's property.
- Yeah.
- Baseball field's a big deal. When I go in there and it's just a wreck and I go in there and get all those lines crisped up and straightened up and get everything symmetrical. put down that fresh clay and it looks like the Boston Red Sox infield, that does not get old to me.
- Yeah. Well it's, well you, you still love the work and what you do.
- Oh, absolutely.
- You still love the end result.
- Oh, absolutely.
- What would you say to the people who say, well, Pete, I hear you that, yeah, I want to, I wanna be a good person. I want to take care of people. But, you know, it's so easy to get into our industry. You got into the industry with an old truck, a borrowed trailer, and a mower. And if I raise my guys up and if I help 'em grow, I help 'em mature, I help 'em get financially secure. If I give 'em all this knowledge, well, they're just gonna go start their own company. So I can't train up my guys. They're gonna leave me and go compete with me. What would you say to that?
- So, have you ever thought about it, that that might be part of your role as a person in life, is to help that person be successful? And if the level of success that they're looking for is more than being an employee, why would you not help 'em? I know that's, I know that's not what people expect to hear.
- I didn't know what you were gonna say. I love that.
- I can, I cannot tell you the times that I've had people quit and go out and start their own thing. And it, yeah, it does upset me a little bit because I've spent all this time and money on them. That's natural for me to feel that way. But at the same time, I'm in the corner rooting for 'em.
- Yeah.
- I want 'em to do good. And now don't come, don't come get my accounts. You know what I'm saying? You go get your own accounts. But at the same time, I'm rooting for them and I've had 'em call me and ask me questions and I help 'em, I don't hold back. I mean, why in the world would I keep some information back from someone who's, they're just trying to make their life better for their family?
- Well, and Pete, I think that speaks to much to your kinda your generous paradigm and outlook on the world. That there's enough work to do, there's enough work for everyone. If somebody wants to grow up and start their own thing, well great.
- In my, in my neighborhood alone right here is 150 houses. There's more than enough work for everybody out there. Yeah, I, so, you know, I just, I try not to hold grudges against people that leave and go start their own thing. Yeah, I'm just, I try to be the opposite and I want them to succeed.
- I just-
- And do well.
- respect the heck outta that, Pete. That's fantastic. So then let's, let's carry that thought to the end conclusion then. Right? So you've had guys work under you, they've gone start to their own thing. You're not afraid of that. You're not worried about that. Maybe there's a plenty of people listening right now that they're working on a crew, they're growing in a company and they're saying, hey, you know what, it might be the right time for me to jump and start my own thing. If you had to boil it down to one, two pieces of advice for someone who's looking to go start something, what would that be?
- One is integrity and quality. I kind of bunch those together. 'cause it goes back to what I said. If you tell somebody you're gonna come do something at their property, you need to show up and you need to do it. And you need to do it to the best of your ability. And it needs to be done better than anybody else can possibly do it. That alone, that one thing alone, people, word of mouth, you know, something in 20 years I've advertised one time. No, I spent, I spent 1,500 bucks on a Yellow Pages ad. This is maybe 10 or 12 years ago.
- You're dating yourself now.
- Yeah. Never, never got the first phone call from it.
- If, okay, if you're listening to this and you don't know what the yellow pages are, you need to Google that.
- Exactly. Exactly. Some people are gonna be like, what's a yellow page? So I spent the money on the ad, never got the first phone call. And that was the, that's the only time in 20 years I've ever spent a dime of money on like legitimate advertising. I've done a few gravel driveway renovation ads, like on Facebook in the past two or three years, because that's kind of a niche thing to get the word out to just let people know. But word of mouth has been the way I've grown my company since day one. And that goes back to the integrity and the quality of work. People talk. You know, when I lived, leave this house right here, they call their buddy and say, you gotta come by and look at my yard. I've never seen my yard look this clean or striped up like this, or look this good. And then that guy calls and then one of his buddy calls. So that's definitely the first piece of advice is integrity and quality. And number two, if you make $10, don't spend 11. Basic math.
- Basic math. I love it.
- Basic math.
- Well, you can boil it down to integrity and basic math.
- Yeah, and I've literally grown my company from nothing to what it is now with those three things.
- Yeah, well, Pete, you are a wealth of not only knowledge, tactical, practical knowledge, but also, also just wisdom and what you're willing to share. I wish everybody had the opportunity to sit and listen to you. And if you want, remember, if you want more of Pete's wisdom make to go check out his channel on YouTube, GCI Turf, he's always dropping not only, you know, project videos and updates and how to tackle work that needs to be done and new equipment and how to dial things in and learning from failures, but also some of this, this wisdom as well for growing your business. So.
- Yeah.
- Pete, I appreciate all the time, sir. This has been, this has been a riot.
- My pleasure, my pleasure.
- So remember, this is Pete is, is a good friend of, of ABI and we love picking his brain. We also try here on "Ground etc" to give, give you some exposure to other industry leaders. So if you aren't yet following "Ground etc", make sure you're following that. Whether it's your podcast or YouTube channels, check this out. Stay in touch with us and reach out to us. Reach out to Pete, both of us, like here at "Ground etc". But also, I know Pete, and that's one reason we're so good friends, that we wanna be available to people and answer questions.
- Yeah.
- Make sure to drop your comments, engage so we can help you get down the work that you need to get done as well.
- Absolutely.
- Thanks for checking in everyone. We'll see you next time.
